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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Following on from Mr. Watt's suggestion that this "involved the Secretary of the Government and myself as Secretary General of the Department of Health", he says that the CMO "indicated that he wished to consider his future options including potential academic and international roles.". Mr. Watt goes on to say that both "the Secretary to the Government and I indicated our strong support to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. Your opening statement-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Your opening statement gives the impression that the first contact you had with Mr. Robert Watt in relation to this secondment was after Dr. Holohan contacted you in late February and then in early March, you contacted Mr. Robert Watt to ask him if he was dealing with this issue. Are you now telling us that you had a telephone conversation with Mr. Watt following your meeting with Dr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay, what are you telling us?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Yes I understand that, but are you telling the committee now that you did discuss the fact that Dr. Holohan wanted to move on to academia, outside of the Department of Health-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Sorry, if you read the line before that, it says that the "CMO indicated that he wished to consider his future options including potential academic and international roles." It goes on to say: "Both the Secretary to the Government and I indicated our strong support to facilitate and help where possible." I want to know how Mr. Robert Watt knew what you told Dr. Tony Holohan. Did you phone...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I am not suggesting-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I am not suggesting that you discussed secondment at that early stage. From what we are learning here what I will say is that the opening statement, which is the letter sent to the committee, does not include all of the details. What Mr. Fraser says, to paraphrase his opening statement, is that he had confidential conversations with the Chief Medical Officer at an early stage last year....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: This is the point. The Secretary General, who refuses to come before the committee, makes it very clear that Mr. Fraser was aware perhaps not of the complete details but much of the information at an earlier stage. Therefore, both statements are, in a way, conflicting. We are trying to get as much information here as we possibly can.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Let us go to February. What happened in February? Will Mr. Fraser explain the form of this conversation in February? Was it a meeting? Was it a telephone conversation? What did the Chief Medical Officer say to Mr. Fraser at that point?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Fraser says in his letter the Chief Medical Officer was thinking of stepping down. Was he shooting the breeze saying he was thinking of doing so? Was he saying to Mr. Fraser, as Secretary General, that he was stepping down and would seek approval for the process?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: On 25 February he had, at that point, sought formal support for a secondment to Trinity College Dublin. He was not thinking at that point. He sought formal support from the Department at that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: The Secretary General also tells us with regard to the formal support for a secondment to Trinity College Dublin that the Chief Medical Officer informed Mr. Fraser of this request.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: He was actually doing it and not just thinking. I am wondering why Mr. Fraser is putting down this language if that is not what happened. Let us move on to the research funding. Mr. Fraser states Dr. Holohan envisaged some research funding. How did that conversation go? He was going in for a formal appointment, a secondment to Trinity College Dublin. He told Mr. Fraser this will...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. He told you he expected research funding would be available to support his work. What is Mr. Fraser's understanding of this? How does research funding work? Is it competitive? Can research funding be allocated? Is the core issue that research funding is not competitive?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Will Mr. Fraser speak to me about the Government endorsement of open-ended secondment arrangements to the university sector for senior civil servants? When did that take place?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Has the Government endorsed open-ended secondment arrangements to the university sector for senior civil servants?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: It is in the report commissioned by Robert Watt for the Minister for Health.

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