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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: This is extraordinary.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: This is a crazy situation. As the Committee of Public Accounts, there is the whole thing about value for money. We are losing. One of the Deputies already referred to this matter briefly. Could these situations arise? Here is an example of where it has arisen. We are losing housing stock. It is a small enough one at fewer than three dozen. I do not want to be too specific about it....

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Yes. However, the main interface, and the only interface that some have had, is with a private company. That is the point.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I welcome the fact that there is a regulator in place. From the point of view of value for public money, the reason we have social housing is to meet the social housing need for those who cannot provide a house. The group I am talking about is elderly people – the most vulnerable – and some of them have special needs. Yet, we find ourselves in this situation. The concern is...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: The provision of these units was very positive. They met the housing needs of an awful lot of people, some of whom were elderly and, unfortunately, have passed on over the past 20 or 30 years. The intentions of the body itself were positive and good. The people on the small approved housing body did good work and had good intentions. However, typically, people move on and people are...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I will be liberal with the Deputy. Keep going.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: To return to the point about the situation when the loan finance is discharged, the regulator, Ms Lyons, said earlier that there were more than 50,000 housing units within the AHB sector. How many of them are leases and how many are capital financed?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: What is the total?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: There are potentially 50,000 homes for which the State could provide up to 100% finance in some cases and when the loan finance is discharged, despite the fact that they are within the ownership of the AHBs, which I understand are charities, the local authority will have no allocation power and cannot allocate tenants on the basis of social need. There will be no control over rent. They can...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I accept that there is an economic reality that has to be faced in house maintenance but while doing that work, I ask the Department to consider that some of these AHBs are in an position to draw down considerable SEAI grants. The SEAI was anxious to capture groups of houses, particularly where there is a small community centre, which there is in many of these small developments. We have...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Ms Lyons can ask questions, but what powers does she have? That is the question. She seems to be alluding to, once out of that financing period, be it 25 or 30 years, the powers would be under charities legislation only. That is what she is indicating here.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I have a question for the Department and Mr. Jordan. Can AHBs sell that after the 25-year period?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: They could sell 50 or 60 houses.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: And they can hold on to the cash.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: In terms of their constitution. They draw up their constitution like any other legal entity, normally in consultation with a solicitor. That is the way it would work.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: We are talking about 50,000 houses.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I will let the Deputy come in later. After the 25-year period, AHBs can set the rent themselves, bring in a private company to manage them and ignore the local authority as to allocations. They do not have to go on the basis of housing need. Some of these have never gone on such a basis. I will not say "never" but the practice has not been to consult or take nominations from the local...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I will clarify that point. I said this at the start. I acknowledge the good work the sector is doing, but we have left a way open, in the design of these five schemes, such that most of these houses can end up in a situation, when they are out of mortgage and the finance is discharged on them, where the State has no control, loses the asset, and tenants have no control over rent. It...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: The gap is as wide as the barn door. That is how wide the gap is. I accept most bodies will continue to work with the State, particularly if they continue to roll out projects, because they have to play ball with the Department but they could also tell the Department to get lost. They can tell everyone to get lost - the Committee of Public Accounts, Mr. Jordan, the Minister, the Taoiseach,...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Tell me why it is not the case. I have asked the question a few times. You explain to me why it is not.

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