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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: With 130,000 people on housing lists throughout the country, this would add a further 17,000. That would create social chaos. That is the social cost.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: Yes, but there is a churn.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: The point is that it is social chaos for 17,000 families.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: We should sort it before it happens.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: Which comes to the question for Mr. Burgess. This 10,000 figure is actually his analysis. It is not written down somewhere it can be verified.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: I want to challenge Mr. Burgess on the example he gave us this morning, which is not a typical example. I too go down to the courts. What I see when I go down to the registered courts is a stack of legal individuals on one side, mainly with the banks, and then some lay litigant or lowly solicitor on the other side trying to do battle. In an awful lot of those cases, they tell me, and I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: It is similar to what is supposed to happen here, where the rights travel with the loan. That does not happen. I have seen cases where the regulated entity told clients to write to it and ask it for the information. I have dealt with clients who did that. One, with whom I am directly involved, did so last Christmas and has received no response whatever. This is done in the hope that the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: That is fine, but in some of his commentary, Mr. Burgess is saying that these people are not engaging. I am telling him that that is not true.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: That brings us to the point that David Hall made earlier. Those people who simply do not have the funds to make payments have to go somewhere.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: We cannot just tell people that we are going to repossess their home, and good luck. As some members said earlier, many of those people were led into this debt. They went in for a loan of €80,000 and came out with €120,000, a loan for a car and maybe a loan for a second car. The banks are as much to blame for all of this as anybody else. We bailed out the banks. I do not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: And if it was vetoed by the bank?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: I refer to the vulture funds and their attendance here at committees. The banks are hard-nosed commercial entities, which are difficult to deal with. The vulture funds are worse. I do not think they have any morals whatever. They are cold individuals to deal with. They have no compassion or humanity. They want to kick the last shilling out of people and they will beat up the citizen in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: No, we will take up Mr. Burgess's suggestion on that. However, it is very difficult for anyone commenting, or for us as public representatives, to get a feel for what is happening in the economy, in society or with the borrowers without having this wide ranging information on vulture funds and the entities that represent them. We have to get to that point. The feeling on this committee is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: In addition, one is asking a person who has been beaten up by the bank over a long number of years to find the energy to confront the vulture fund or its agents. That is a David-and-Goliath battle that is not won by the throw of a stone, I am afraid. It is harrowing to listen to the stories. I have another point I wish to take up with the witnesses. The four individuals who appeared...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: We did not have to ask them. They poured their details out before this committee. Regardless of what happened, no bank was entitled to treat them in the way they were treated.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: I would dispute that. I commend Mr. Burgess on the work he is doing but I simply say to him that the number of people who have been robbed of their trackers represents one big scandal that the country faces. The manner in which the banks dealt with them is shocking. That continues to be the case. If it were not for this committee, the four people who appeared before it and the work the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: At the first meeting we had, the Central Bank told us there were 10,000 tracker mortgages involved. There are now 38,000 or so and we still not have come to the end of it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: Before Mr. Burgess states that as a fact - as he has stated the figure of 10,000 as a fact - he should note that they were asked the hard questions. Perhaps Mr. Burgess did not want to hear it but the fact of the matter is that, on the day the individuals were here, the hard questions almost did not have to be asked because they so wanted to tell their stories that they put everything out...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: That is well put. Could Dr. O'Hagan-Luff give us details on the ten golden principles she spoke about?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Resolution of Non-Performing Loans: Discussion (Resumed) (17 May 2018)

John McGuinness: Yes.

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