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Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: That is fine. I agree with the Deputy's intent. There are currently about 185,000 discretionary medical cards covering a range of issues. I know we all, as TDs, help constituents apply for those. We have schemes whereby those who we believe have been injured by the State get medical cards and enhanced care packages. We have seen that for various patient groups. I fully appreciate the...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: With a caveat. I think we are talking about two slightly different things. The Supplementary Estimate is the cash to the end of the year.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: The cash is a little under €1 billion. Then there is the income and expenditure deficit, our latest estimate of which will come in at a little under €1.5 billion. Going into next year, the difference between this Supplementary Estimate - call it €1 billion - and the income and expenditure at, say, €1.5 billion is that this Supplementary Estimate is not relevant...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: -----but the €1.5 billion obviously is.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: Let us call it €1 billion. It is €960 million but for the sake of this discussion, let us call it €1 billion. That money is for all cash requirements to the end of this year. It is not the case that because the income and expenditure deficit is €1.5 billion, and we are looking for €1 billion, the HSE will start next year with €500 million in unpaid...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: -----the HSE.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: My view relates to the income and expenditure deficit. This Supplementary Estimate relates to a cash flow issue. The income-----

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: Yes. My view is that approximately two thirds of the income and expenditure deficit, which we think will come in at a little under €1.5 billion, is the result of inflation and demand.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: The Deputy will forgive me but that is a difficult question because although he has given me the papers in question, I have not read them. He will appreciate that I want to read them in their totality rather than responding to individual lines. I expect the Department for public expenditure and reform to constantly agitate for more and more cost controls. That is part of the job of that...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: No. I do not have in front of me what the Deputy is reading out so my response-----

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I am happy to respond. I am just saying I might have the context slightly wrong. If what the Deputy has read out is a view from the Department of public expenditure and reform that the financial controls within the hospitals are not satisfactory, that is something with which I entirely agree. They are not satisfactory. I have allocated an additional €40 million for next year to...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: That may be the view of the Department of public expenditure and reform, or the view of an official. I can say that we worked closely with the HSE on some of these issues and some difficult decisions were made. The Deputy and his committee colleagues will be aware, for example, that when we reached 6,100 funded posts, we said the HSE had to stop. That is the same as happens in every...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I would not accept that, no.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I cannot speak for why the Department of public expenditure and reform does not accept it. I can tell the Deputy that my officials and the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, team, which all of us and those across the Civil Service accept is a serious analytical team in several Departments, produced detailed and solid economic analyses which backed up the inflation...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: The Deputy's question goes right to the heart of everything we are dealing with where he has pretty much identified the issues. First, I will deal with the last question with regard to the chief executive officer. The Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform does not engage directly with State agencies and engages with line Departments, which do that. I would not criticise...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I do. Deputy Cullinane just referred to the fact that I forwarded it on to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and I essentially endorsed it. It is there in the public domain. It is going to be challenging. My focus, and that of Mr. Gloster, is to ensure that it does not have an impact on patient services. What both he and I have flagged and agree with is that it creates a challenge. There is...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: My private secretary would have sent it on to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe’s private secretary.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not know. I can find out for the Deputy.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not know. We have some of that team here.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(29 Nov 2023)

Stephen Donnelly: Well, we had been having an ongoing conversation for quite some time. The letter from Bernard Gloster to me was not dissimilar to an ongoing conversation at official level. It is a matter of public record that there was a different view being held between the Departments of public expenditure and Health in terms of the requirements for next year. I would, then, say this was part of an...

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