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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: It might be prudent for one from each of the party groupings to text their Whip and seek permission for us to continue in the interests of continuity here. I will do that on our behalf and-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: As head of legal affairs, would Mr. Ruane's understanding be that one's responsibility to the law is superseded by one's responsibility to one's superior or line manager?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: No, Mr. Ruane is the head of legal affairs for a State body and I am asking, in that context, is his responsibility primarily to the law or is that responsibility superseded by responsibility to his line manager.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: That is fine. Mr. Ruane just pointed out that he has taken direction from his line manager in terms of his activities here today, is that the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Did any of the other five witnesses receive any contact from line managers in respect of their testimony here today? Yes or no will do.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: How does Mr Culhane explain that more than €2.3 million in private bank accounts, credit union accounts, other accounts and equities was not returned to the Exchequer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: If Mr. Culhane is financial director of the organisation, is it fair to say the buck stops with him?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Who does the buck stop with?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: What is Mr. Culhane's role if, on one hand, €2.3 million can be in various accounts in Templemore and, on the other, there is an accounting manager?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Mr. Culhane was aware of that in 2008. From the documentation that was provided only this morning, which was disruptive as we were trying to prepare for a meeting to take place minutes later, he says that he advised that matters be brought to the attention of the Minister in 2008. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Did the report not mention the Minister as well?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: When that did not happen, was Mr. Culhane not concerned or did he just decide - because they did not do that - to forget about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: As the longest-serving member of the senior management team - and, arguably, the most experienced - and given his years of service and the fact that his obligations are to the law rather than to a line manager or practice, when Mr. Culhane saw that these matters were not being dealt with, was he not of the view that he needed to go further and contact the Comptroller and Auditor General to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I am not trying to be adversarial but time is short and I do have to cut in sometimes if I have already got the answer I am looking for. I mean no disrespect. Does Mr. Culhane see An Garda Síochána, from a financial perspective, as a series of pigeonholes? Is it the case that once a matter is out of his pigeonhole, it is in another person's and he does not have to worry about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: How would Mr. Culhane reconcile the fact that someone highlights these matters as not being addressed with the fact that they would appear, at least from where we sit, as embezzlement, as one colleague described it, or, at the least, very poor management? Some people might even call what happened theft. In his opening statement, Niall Kelly indicated that, under the rules and the law, money...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: That does not supersede the law as we have heard from Mr. Ruane.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Was Mr. Culhane party to the culture mentioned by Mr. Kelly to "circle the wagons", I think was the term he used? Did he say "We will circle the wagons and bury that until we know how much we can contain before we let anything out, and if anyone such as John Barrett or anybody else puts up their hand, by God, we will criminally investigate them or put whatever barriers we can in their way to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: As a result of that, would Mr. Culhane withdraw the content of the letter, dated 24 October 2015, in which he threw a colleague whose professionalism he acknowledged a minute ago under the bus? Mr. Culhane wanted him criminally investigated because he was concerned that he was out to damage the Garda rather than uphold the law. Is that culture evident and is Mr. Culhane party to it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I am bound to say from the evidence, including the documentation and Mr. Culhane's answers, that he is not just a part of it but he promotes it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Are environment and culture the same thing? When Mr. Culhane began in 2000, did he have to embrace this culture whereby Kieran Kenny, Cyril Dunne and John Keegan said "This is not to go to internal audit"? Was it the culture for them to let him know when the law could be adhered to and that, in the meantime, Mr. Culhane was to do as they said? Was that the environment or culture that he...

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