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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: What are Mr. Cahillane's qualifications?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Mr. Cahillane stated that the audited accounts provided by KPMG to the company were flawed. Does that mean the NDFA will now sue KPMG? Is Mr. Cahillane contemplating that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Should he not?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I will put this in perspective for Mr. Cahillane. I read his opening statement and have listened carefully to his exchanges with other committee members. The Department and anyone associated with this situation are washing their hands of the issue that lies at its kernel, that being, the poor treatment of the SMEs concerned. What roared out of Mr. Cahillane's statement was an uncaring...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: In some of these new schools, the pupils are going to turn up and sit on new furniture that has not been paid for but that was provided at a cost of €250,000 and that the school, the Department, the NDFA, the company or whatever does not own. Under the supplier's contract, the goods are not the property of the schools until they are paid for. Will Mr. Cahillane allow that contractor...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: But that is the problem. We are referring to the State. Mr. Cahillane stated that it would cost the State zero, but it will cost the State. Small companies will go bust and their employees, who will be out of jobs, will sign on for jobseeker's payments or whatever they can get. There will be a cost to society and communities because those small businesses will be gone. I was in business....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I am asking what advice will the NDFA give. Has it learned a lesson from this? In the light of Carillion's failure within the process, what will the NDFA tell the new contractor? What advice will it give to whoever is writing the contract to protect the payment of the last person in the line?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Obviously, the contractor will have won in a competitive tender process, but is there no line the NDFA can insert into the contract to require the contractor to employ people at the same rate they had been charging for goods and services?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: No, I am asking the NDFA to insert it into the main contract.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: What I do not like about the committee's conversation today is that the NDFA is dealing with many companies, but at the centre of this issue is taxpayers' money and the State. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Therefore, the NDFA has to do something to stop this. As part of a learning process on this issue, I am asking what it will insert into the new contract to protect everyone down...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Could the contract provisions have allowed for that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Mr. O'Neill said that beyond that payment, the contract did not stipulate anything. I am asking if it could have.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Given the experience we have gained through the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General investigating misspending and poor spending by the State, or just the downright laziness that caused the whole thing to fold up, would the NDFA not have learned from the experience and, in the context of this big contract, stipulated that down to the end of the line it was going to show how much it...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: A minute ago Mr. O'Neill told me that the NDFA could not stipulate it to the nth degree. I am asking it to do so. I am also asking the question about the contractor as an example. Can we get back the school furniture that has not been paid for because it has not honoured the contract? It is stated in the contract that it is not its furniture until it pays for it. Are we going to play the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: That takes me back to the role as adviser. The NDFA has learned from the past and seen all of the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General and we are here now. Will it now advise that this should happen? We create the legislation, but the Minister and the Department are advised by somebody at the coalface. The NDFA is at the coalface. Will it advise them where it has gone wrong?...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: No, but the NDFA advises.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Where it sees that the rules and regulations are wrong and causing such problems in the SME sector, would it not just tell them to change the rules or the legislation? Is that not part of what it should be doing?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: That is all I asked for.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: There is no harm in breaking a mould that does not work and introducing something that might put manners on the industry. Carillion may have been the cheapest bidder, but we have a great country; history tells us that we built America and England, including London. Some of the biggest companies of one kind or another are Irish made. Our attraction to going beyond our shores in procurement...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Going back to the issue of where goods are provided and are not paid for, is there any way of addressing that?