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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I am trying to understand the Department's rationale behind the various housing models that are being used. In some cases they have been 100% financed, while in others it has been 90% or 30% and the AHBs go to the Housing Finance Agency to borrow the rest. When the AHB is out the other end, as it were, and the finance has been redeemed after 25 or 30 years, why is the State not taking an...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Where does it revert to? I have looked at the briefings for today's meeting and read about the five different schemes, and I am not clear about what happens at the end. If the State has equity in a scheme, it has control of the asset. The reason I ask the question is because some of the earlier and especially smaller AHBs that started in the 1990s are now coming out the other end of it, so...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: It could become more usual if they get away with it.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: That is correct.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I am asking a very direct question regarding the point where the loan is redeemed or where there is no longer that financial connection. Let us say the 25 or 30 years are up. Can this situation arise? How has this situation arisen? I read that it is most likely a capital assistance scheme coming from the 1990s. It states here that the rent should be an economic rent and tenants are taken...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: To clarify, does that mean that they can allocate to whomever they want?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: So they can do what they like. Here we have houses built with taxpayers’ money and land donated by an institution – and thanks to them for that. It was a very positive thing at the time and a very good use of a piece of land. Houses were built by the taxpayer and the taxpayer is now subsidising the rents for these. The vulnerable tenants are left in a situation where the...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: This is extraordinary.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: This is a crazy situation. As the Committee of Public Accounts, there is the whole thing about value for money. We are losing. One of the Deputies already referred to this matter briefly. Could these situations arise? Here is an example of where it has arisen. We are losing housing stock. It is a small enough one at fewer than three dozen. I do not want to be too specific about it....

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Yes. However, the main interface, and the only interface that some have had, is with a private company. That is the point.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I welcome the fact that there is a regulator in place. From the point of view of value for public money, the reason we have social housing is to meet the social housing need for those who cannot provide a house. The group I am talking about is elderly people – the most vulnerable – and some of them have special needs. Yet, we find ourselves in this situation. The concern is...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: The provision of these units was very positive. They met the housing needs of an awful lot of people, some of whom were elderly and, unfortunately, have passed on over the past 20 or 30 years. The intentions of the body itself were positive and good. The people on the small approved housing body did good work and had good intentions. However, typically, people move on and people are...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I will be liberal with the Deputy. Keep going.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: To return to the point about the situation when the loan finance is discharged, the regulator, Ms Lyons, said earlier that there were more than 50,000 housing units within the AHB sector. How many of them are leases and how many are capital financed?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: What is the total?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: There are potentially 50,000 homes for which the State could provide up to 100% finance in some cases and when the loan finance is discharged, despite the fact that they are within the ownership of the AHBs, which I understand are charities, the local authority will have no allocation power and cannot allocate tenants on the basis of social need. There will be no control over rent. They can...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I accept that there is an economic reality that has to be faced in house maintenance but while doing that work, I ask the Department to consider that some of these AHBs are in an position to draw down considerable SEAI grants. The SEAI was anxious to capture groups of houses, particularly where there is a small community centre, which there is in many of these small developments. We have...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: Ms Lyons can ask questions, but what powers does she have? That is the question. She seems to be alluding to, once out of that financing period, be it 25 or 30 years, the powers would be under charities legislation only. That is what she is indicating here.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: I have a question for the Department and Mr. Jordan. Can AHBs sell that after the 25-year period?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Brian Stanley: They could sell 50 or 60 houses.

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