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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: The referrals under section 102 probably have the highest profile. There were 59 such referrals in 2021. This question has been asked before, but what is the standard timeline for dealing with such complaints? Someone might be on suspension, for instance. A case that stands out for me and on which we get queries from time to time is that of George Nkencho. People ask us what the timeline...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What was the longest investigation? Do the witnesses have that information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Could we get a note on what has been the longest investigation? We want to see whether this system is working efficiently and if there are sufficient resources to do the job. With the additional powers, GSOC will be able to take on a larger caseload. In the absence of such powers now, GSOC is restricted. When does GSOC anticipate those powers and resources will be in place? Is there a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Does GSOC have a rough estimate of the timeframe it envisages?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I do indeed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: We will review it. I have a few questions. According to the briefing note, there is a case management system. I assume it is possible to capture how long it takes to conduct investigations and GSOC would be able give an analysis. It is absolutely essential that this is the case in order that it can properly estimate what its needs will be. Is that case management system sufficient to do...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What is the timeline for the new system?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Will the new system collect things such as ethnicity and geographical location - the existing system does not do so - because it is very important that we get a profile of exactly from where the complaints are coming and if there are issues with that kind of data screen?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Is it possible to make a complaint about a Garda station rather than an individual Garda? I will use as an example the case of Sergeant Maurice McCabe because there was a culture in a station. Is it possible to make that kind of complaint or should the complaint about the individual be made to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC? How would something like that be handled?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: In the response, reference was made to systemic issues. I would have thought this would stand out as a systemic issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: On the investigations opened in the public interest, in 2021 there were 13, in 2020 there were 26, and in 2019 there were 44, so it is less. There are two questions, and I will deal with that one first. What kind of investigations would be opened in the public interest? What would prompt GSOC to do that? Are there examples the commission can give us where it has opened investigations and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Would they not automatically be referred? I would have thought the section 102 provisions-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: So what are the investigations opened in the public interest? Are they different?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Are there examples of such investigations? I am not sure the public fully understands. We have the same problem here in the Committee of Public Accounts, whereby people may believe that if an issue does not fit somewhere else, they can send a letter to the Committee of Public Accounts. Sometimes it is more about public accountability than public accounts. In the context of understanding...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I am trying to get an indication of what kinds of investigation would be opened in the public interest where there is not a referral. Examples are great at giving a steer to people.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: In relation to the meeting with the Garda Commissioner, I understand there needs to be a working relationship. It is an independent organisation and there needs to be respect for that independence. Has there been a difficulty with the division of labour? Has there been conflict between the guards and GSOC in relation to who should have responsibility for particular investigations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: For example, there will be disciplinary issues that will be dealt with by the guards but they could ending up being something that a protected disclosure is made about. Does that kind of conflict happen? Has GSOC identified things in relation to which there should be greater understanding of boundaries?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
(7 Apr 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I am not looking for details of protected disclosures but has GSOC got such disclosures? Do they come internally from GSOC or from An Garda Síochána? What tends to be the profile?

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