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Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: The circumstances to which the Deputy refers are very particular in character.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I move amendment No. 20: In page 8, subsection (1), line 27, to delete "contractual arrangement" and substitute "employment, office or position". The purpose of this and the following amendment is to bring the section into line with the definition of "public servant" which will include categories of people who hold office or other positions but are not covered by the term "employee". An...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: It is not clear what Deputy Morgan has in mind in proposing this amendment. While he has made clear what is on his mind, in general, it is difficult to understand the intention of this amendment, which proposes to change the definition of "Minister" in this Bill from "Minister for Finance" to "Minister for Finance on behalf of the Oireachtas". That would be a departure from the usual...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I move amendment No. 4a: In page 4, line 22, after "Oireachtas" to insert the following: "or of a local authority (within the meaning of the Local Government Act 2001)". The purpose of this amendment is to provide explicitly for local authority members to be included in the definition of "public servant" in section 1 of the Bill. While it can be argued that they are covered in the definition...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Deputy Burton will be aware that I sit in this House as a Deputy for the same constituency as her. I am not here in any professional capacity. The Government takes legal advice from the Office of the Attorney General. The advice it has received in this instance is that it would not be in accordance with the Constitution to apply this measure to the President, to members of the Judiciary or...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: The standard position on the specific queries is that judges can pay a pension contribution if they opt into the spouses' and children's pension scheme. The same constitutional provision applies to that particular scheme. The constitutional position is clear and the Government has been advised by the Attorney General on this issue. It is not a matter the Government has any power to vary....

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Unlike tax, the contribution does not apply in general to citizens, but only to some citizens. Therefore, it is quite different from the tax regime. Deputy Behan referred to a decision involving the widow of a former Supreme Court judge, who tried to argue that the imposition of increased tax on the salary had been unconstitutional. The view taken by the court was that taxation on a...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: That is the case.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: While there may be plenty of lawyers to take cases, as we all know, I have to follow the advice of the Attorney General. I have been advised that it would be improper for me to comment on the position of the Judiciary until the legislation is enacted. The legislation has not been enacted. It is subject to the legitimate debate and argument of the House. If it is a matter of contention...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: It will be implemented from 1 March on income accrued after that date. On the amendment tabled by Deputy Bruton, section 2(1) is the crucial section in the application of the Act. It applies to a public servant who is a member of a public service pension scheme, is entitled to a benefit under such a scheme, or receives a payment in lieu of membership in such a scheme. As I understand the...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I do not have to rely on section 10 — that is the crucial point — to exempt such persons because if they are not members of a pension scheme in the first place, section 2——

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I am sorry, I was thinking of the exemption. I was thinking of a different section.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Section 10, "Reduction of other payments", relates to professional services. It gives power to the Minister to make regulations. It is a precondition of the operation of section 10. The section does not relate to the contribution. It is a different section altogether, section which provides the foundation for the Government implementing the decision of the 8% reduction in professional fees.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Section 8 is the exemption section. I am sorry for confusing the matter.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: No. The precondition for the operation of section 9 is a regulation of the relevant Minister, the Minister for Health and Children, with my consent and the intention is not to apply through section 9 the operation of this contribution system to persons who are not entitled to a pension arrangement. The fundamental point is that under section 2 the status of the person must be such that he...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: They are captured. That is the real point of difference between us, Deputy Bruton is quite correct. The legislation is clear on the question of the home helps and persons who are not entitled to a pension. It is also clear on the question of non-pensionable payments, which his amendment would take outside the scope of the levy, and which include overtime and allowances. Such payments are a...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: They will pay the contribution. As I outlined yesterday evening in replying to the Second Stage debate, the cost of funding that pension is way in excess of any contribution that is made towards the pension by more recent members who have joined the force. The purpose of this levy is to make a contribution towards the eventual pension which is paid. Of course, the member is not in receipt...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I agree with Deputies Bruton and Barrett. This is an excellent suggestion. In fact, my Department is in the process of considering improvements to the presentation of the financial statements of Departments and offices. This raises complex issues and will require careful consideration. On pensions, however, the Department and I have decided to include an estimate of the accrued pension...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I accept it in spirit.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: We must build on the initial exercise of the total figure to look at specimens and in time break them up into general categories. I am not totally satisfied that doing this according to Department would be a good idea but one could take a substantial body of personnel in the public service, like the gardaí, the Defence Forces or teachers, and see if a separate computation could be made.

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