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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Fraser says in his letter the Chief Medical Officer was thinking of stepping down. Was he shooting the breeze saying he was thinking of doing so? Was he saying to Mr. Fraser, as Secretary General, that he was stepping down and would seek approval for the process?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: On 25 February he had, at that point, sought formal support for a secondment to Trinity College Dublin. He was not thinking at that point. He sought formal support from the Department at that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: The Secretary General also tells us with regard to the formal support for a secondment to Trinity College Dublin that the Chief Medical Officer informed Mr. Fraser of this request.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: He was actually doing it and not just thinking. I am wondering why Mr. Fraser is putting down this language if that is not what happened. Let us move on to the research funding. Mr. Fraser states Dr. Holohan envisaged some research funding. How did that conversation go? He was going in for a formal appointment, a secondment to Trinity College Dublin. He told Mr. Fraser this will...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. He told you he expected research funding would be available to support his work. What is Mr. Fraser's understanding of this? How does research funding work? Is it competitive? Can research funding be allocated? Is the core issue that research funding is not competitive?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Will Mr. Fraser speak to me about the Government endorsement of open-ended secondment arrangements to the university sector for senior civil servants? When did that take place?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Has the Government endorsed open-ended secondment arrangements to the university sector for senior civil servants?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: It is in the report commissioned by Robert Watt for the Minister for Health.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I thank Mr. Fraser for his clarification. I want to go through two more parts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I apologise. As far back as August Mr. Fraser was aware Tony Holohan was looking at his options of moving on from being Chief Medical Officer. In February Mr. Fraser was informed he was looking at academia. In March he asked the Secretary General to ensure he was facilitating such arrangements.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. In the conversation with the Secretary General of the Department of Health what did Mr. Fraser say?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: That is fine. I will take it back. Mr. Fraser strongly supported, as Robert Watt suggests, this process.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: That is fine. To go back to the question, in August, February and March, and it became known at the end of March, Mr. Fraser did not mention a dicky bird to the Taoiseach that the Chief Medical Officer was thinking about moving on. Is that right? I do not know how many telephone conversations Mr. Fraser has with the Taoiseach, or how many WhatsApp and text messages, or meetings and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: With regard to the secondment policy in the Civil Service, I have a letter from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that went to all HR colleagues. This is Circular 27/2021, which indicates the new secondment policy for services being implemented. The first key principle is that all secondments will be temporary in nature and in general will be for a period of six months up to a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: A circular has legal standing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Can they be open-ended given this circular?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Pearse Doherty: There is a very important point here. There may be existing open-ended secondments given whatever rules were in place at the time. Given this key principle, Circular 27/2001 prohibits open-ended secondments, does it not?

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