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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Was it 20 years ago, or ten years?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: For the past 20 years, the authority knew there was a financial issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: What is Mr. Boland saying to me, so?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: So, since 2009-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: While Mr. Boland knew there were issues?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: It did so even though, as the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, going back as far as 2000 and 2001, there were 20-month delays in producing a certified set of accounts. In 2008 and 2009, there was a 39-month delay. At no stage did an alarm bell ring within the HEA.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: In his opening statement, Mr. Boland said the HEA was going to introduce something of a performance-based system. Essentially, he is saying it will reward the colleges that do what they should do.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: What is Mr. Boland suggesting?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Does Mr. Boland accept that, in penalising them, the HEA is actually only penalising students?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: I would accept that, but in this case it seems the only thing that has concentrated the mind is a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is damning. In the absence of the report from the Comptroller and Auditor General, it seems nothing would be happening here and that the HEA would still be ploughing along in informal discussions with the NCAD doing what it was doing up to...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Would it be fair to say the authority introduced that regime on foot of the pending report from the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Those looking in from the outside will note that the HEA has a €1.2 billion budget voted from the Oireachtas. It is considerable amount of money. The NCAD has obviously come in here with its hands up and said, "Mea culpa." How many other institutions can we say, hand on heart, do not have the same problem?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Would Mr. Boland accept, in respect of the five-year period we are talking about, that a college in which €100 million in taxpayers' money has been invested had significant governance issues and that they are being addressed only now?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Does he accept that this is a failure on the part of the HEA?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Why did the HEA have little capacity to intervene?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Would Mr. Boland accept that having a €1.2 billion budget without the power to do what he has just outlined means the role of the HEA is probably more focused on certification, awards and finance?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Would that not be down to the institutions? As the Comptroller and Auditor General said at the start - I am paraphrasing him - the vast majority of the universities have external auditors. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, does not have an audit function but it has a responsibility to ensure the money voted from the Oireachtas goes to the purpose for which it was intended. The...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: What does Mr. Boland mean by saying no HEA could manage the system?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: As I stated at the outset, the only people that will wind up suffering from any punishment will be the students. Of the 60 people in the organisation, how many are accountants?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: One.

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