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Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: I thank the witnesses. Best wishes to Dr. Love in the future. I am sorry to see him go. Best wishes to Paul O'Toole who is taking over his role. I used to work with him many years ago in Bord Fáilte. It is an excellent choice.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: One might as well be upfront and say when one has worked with somebody. I have personal experience of working with the man. Dr. Love's openness on the issues is very welcome. It will serve us well. I welcome the fact that he is being so upfront on the issues today. It is quite obvious to all members of the committee, who have experience of the issues concerning the HEA, that there is a...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: I appreciate that.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: We know about that one.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: Dr. Love is spot on. That is a fairly accurate and useful comment. Mr. Paul O'Toole is entering the role. Will he be as constrained as Dr. Love was? Are we in a vacuum whereby, from a regulatory point of view, nobody who is ever in Dr. Love's role will be able to deal with the issues in the way this committee expects or the public would require until this legislation is dealt with?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: This is pretty good stuff. In fairness, the consultative process is going on so we know there is a requirement to do as proposed. Until it is actually dealt with, and because of the Hunt report, the obvious changing role of the HEA and the fact that the legislation does not match up to it, we will not be able to meet the standards required from a regulatory point of view. That is just a fact.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: It is impossible.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: So what Dr. Love is saying is that-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: I know that and I know exactly what Dr. Love is saying. In his experience, when it comes to governing bodies, there have been glaring examples-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: -----where there has been a complete breakdown and it has fallen to the HEA to deal with the mess. However, the HEA does not have the capacity to do so from a legislative point of view. Is that a fair point?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: This is very revealing. Dr. Love's evidence would mean that we need to speed up this process from a legislative point of view. It should be a priority for the Department. Would Mr. Ó Foghlú agree with that?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: In July, we were promised a report from the HEA on Cork Institute of Technology, CIT, companies. I know we have referred to Waterford. Where does that stand-----

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: -----in the context of spin-out for the CIT companies. I must be honest with Dr. Love. CIT is the gift that never stops giving to this committee. It has been going on for years. The evidence that has been provided is incredible. From a regulatory point of view, if Dr. Love wants an example of breakdown and falling between the cracks, that is it.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: In the context of falling between cracks, I want to deal with protected disclosures. When such disclosures come through the HEA and the Department, what steps does the Department undergo?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: No, I am asking the Department first.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: Does Dr. Love agree with those steps? Does he believe that there were any issues during his period of office - I am not getting into any individual cases - where protected disclosures were not been dealt in the manner in which they should have been? Were there any case that would be dealt with differently if they were being dealt with now?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: What is Dr. Love's understanding of a step disclosure?

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: A step disclosure.

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: Basically, it is where a disclosure is made, the issues are the same and it is followed up. In respect of the case referred to by Dr. Love - and, obviously, we will not go into any details - does he believe it was dealt with appropriately through the Department? Was there any part that should have been dealt with differently? For example, where a disclosure is made to an individual in the...

Public Accounts Committee: HEA Financial Statements 2017 (18 Oct 2018)

Alan Kelly: It is good to hear that.

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