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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Briefly-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: -----and to the point.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: With all due respect, the Commissioner is doing a bit of verbal pilates in terms of how she is presenting the fact. She did not interpret Mr. Culhane's letter as an attempt to dissuade disclosure one way or the other. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am delighted. I am not interested in her pastimes. I want to move on to another piece of correspondence. This is again from Mr. Culhane, but was sent to Mr. Kelly. It is dated 13 October 2016. He wrote this a couple of weeks before he wrote to the Commissioner. In this letter, he takes Mr. Kelly to task. He accuses him of being unprofessional, misleading and mischievous. He...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Whatever the date, we can clarify that after Ms O'Sullivan accepts she knows the letter to which I am referring.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I want Ms O'Sullivan to clarify that he wrote to her - I have the letter here - he said this is very serious, in reference to the head of internal audit, and something needs to happen. Either the accusation needs to be withdrawn by Mr. Culhane or it needs to be overruled by a superior authority. My understanding is that the remarks were not withdrawn, nor were they overruled by a superior...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is 55-262802/15. It is a letter from Mr. Michael Howard, chair of the Garda audit committee, to Commissioner O'Sullivan. I understood it was dated 19 April.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. Howard also told us he had a good and very open relationship with Ms O'Sullivan. He said they were in touch and enjoyed good confidence. There was no tension. He told us he raised these issues with Ms O'Sullivan. We have in writing the fact that he looked for the matter to be resolved and asked for the unconditional withdrawal of Mr. Culhane's remarks or the overruling of those...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Ms O'Sullivan received the letter. What did she do? Did she go and talk to Mr. Culhane?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: When did the Commissioner get that legal advice?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: The Commissioner did not automatically approach Mr. Culhane.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: When did it go into that process?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: We need a firmer answer than that. It was very clear from the correspondence that what Mr. Howard wanted was for the Commissioner to intervene because she is in charge. Is the latter not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What authority does the Commissioner carry within the force?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What clout does she carry? I am conscious that she is the first woman in the job. I do not know, because I do not work in her organisation, how that was received. I imagine, given the nature, size and scale of the organisation, she probably got mixed reviews on her appointment. I am trying to establish, because she is in charge, if the Commissioner carries the level of clout required for...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: But the Commissioner is in charge, is she not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Let me put it a different way. In what circumstances does the Commissioner decide not to delegate? What needs to happen for the Commissioner, as the person in charge, to decide that, on a particular occasion and notwithstanding her organisational structures, a matter requires her direct intervention? What was to stop her contacting Mr. Culhane to say that the matter had been raised with...

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