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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I want to come to Ms Kelly and then Senator Murnane O'Connor. Deputy Pearse Doherty made a point at the previous meeting about investigations in the UK about KPMG.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We are going to get that document, which will be helpful to us. For the information of the witnesses, Mr. Cahillane told us at that meeting that the audit and how the analysis was approached was flawed. If that is the case, and taking into account what Deputy Doherty has told us about the parliamentary report in the UK, the Government has an obligation to pursue KPMG. That is something we...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I thank Ms Kelly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: The constituency is ours.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: To clear up a point raised by Deputy Doherty at the last meeting, I was dealing with the certification process in a lot of detail. Correct me if I am wrong but Mr. Cahillane told us that they could certify it because they had someone on the ground on all of the sites examining the work as it was being done. Is that right or wrong?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: This is from correspondence today. It states that a summary of the legal position as it understands it is outlined in the correspondence. It states that in signing its part of the certificate of compliance and completion, the assigned certifier will rely upon a number of ancillary certificates from others involved in the work. It states that while the majority of those ancillary...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We will pursue the matter with it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We will seek legal advice from services here. While we are making no commitment except that we will do our best within our remit to satisfy the subcontractors because that is as much as we can do today, we will not let them down. Deputy Deering asked about the way to resolve this. The way to resolve this is simple. It is to apply a bit of common sense to the work that was done and to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We will consider all of that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: the Deputy has covered all of the ground. As such, I repeat my thanks and that of the committee to the witnesses for attending to deal with some of the personal issues that face their businesses and families. It is not easy. I am from a small business background and understand full well how board meetings take place on the pillow at night and that is the way it is done. To suffer a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We are discussing the role and operation of the National Development Finance Agency. I welcome Mr. Gerard Cahillane. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If, however, they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: According to Mr. Cahillane, the role of the NDFA is to provide financial and general advice on proposed projects.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Mr. Cahillane says that its responsibility is for the procurement and delivery of PPP projects.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: The NDFA failed to deliver these PPP school projects. When giving advice, what does it rely on for information? Is the information in its staff's heads or stored somewhere in its sections? What qualified people does it have to give this advice?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: What are Mr. Cahillane's qualifications?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Mr. Cahillane stated that the audited accounts provided by KPMG to the company were flawed. Does that mean the NDFA will now sue KPMG? Is Mr. Cahillane contemplating that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Should he not?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I will put this in perspective for Mr. Cahillane. I read his opening statement and have listened carefully to his exchanges with other committee members. The Department and anyone associated with this situation are washing their hands of the issue that lies at its kernel, that being, the poor treatment of the SMEs concerned. What roared out of Mr. Cahillane's statement was an uncaring...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: In some of these new schools, the pupils are going to turn up and sit on new furniture that has not been paid for but that was provided at a cost of €250,000 and that the school, the Department, the NDFA, the company or whatever does not own. Under the supplier's contract, the goods are not the property of the schools until they are paid for. Will Mr. Cahillane allow that contractor...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: But that is the problem. We are referring to the State. Mr. Cahillane stated that it would cost the State zero, but it will cost the State. Small companies will go bust and their employees, who will be out of jobs, will sign on for jobseeker's payments or whatever they can get. There will be a cost to society and communities because those small businesses will be gone. I was in business....

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