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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome the witnesses to the committee and thank Ms Murdock for her opening statement. It is fair to say the insurance industry does not like my legislation. Let me rephrase that; it does not like the accountability that would come with my legislation. Its argument against the legislation under consideration today is that the Government's Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Ms Murdock has just confirmed that the reason Insurance Ireland does not want my legislation, which provides for accountability, is that the Government's Bill does the same thing. She says there are enhancements under the Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill that mandate the Central Bank to collect further data and she has suggested that these data will allow for the same outcome as my...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Let me be clear. That is exactly what I do not want to do. As long as the data are being collected, I am happy. Insurance Ireland is telling me that this legislation that we are currently dealing with in the House, the Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, already provides for that. I am asking Ms Murdock to point out, and I will hand her the Bill if she wants, which section-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Let us dig deep into this. Mr. Horan suggests that the Central Bank (National Claims Information Database) Act 2018 gives the Central Bank the power to collect data from insurance companies. I do not contest that. Does it give unlimited powers to collect insurance data or will further legislation need to be enacted to empower the Central Bank to gather further data?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: The Private Members' Bill we are discussing here would allow the Central Bank to collect the information on, for example, the amount paid by insurance providers during the reporting period in respect of personal injuries sustained by third parties. I am sure it could collect that information at this point. However, could it collect the amount that the insurance provider might reasonably...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: That is to fulfil its duties under the Act but not to go beyond that. I return to the legislation which Ms Murdoch said does exactly the same thing. Mr. Horan spoke about head 3. Is that right?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: That is section 8(4) of the 2018 Act. We are talking about the Government's legislation, the Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022, which our guests say is doing the same thing. What section of that Bill does the same as my legislation?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I need to stop Mr. Horan there because his information is so far out of date. We are not dealing with heads anymore. Heads relate to a draft Bill we discuss during pre-legislative scrutiny. This legislation is going through the Houses. What was head 3 is now section 4 of the legislation. Section 4 is very specific. Does Mr. Horan know that we are giving the Central Bank the power to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: It does not do the same thing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Hang on.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: No, it does not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I am going back. I will not let you dice around this. You should either withdraw the comment or stand over it. Ms Murdoch claims that this legislation does the same thing. The Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill hands the Central Bank of Ireland the power to collect further data. Does she acknowledge that those data have nothing to do with provision of my legislation which is about...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: That is not what Ms Murdock said.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Is Ms Murdoch's position that she is going to tell me that black is white? Is she going to tell me that this Bill does exactly what my Bill does? I can read out the section. The Government's Bill, which has already gone through a number of Stages in this House, only allows for the additional collection of the taxpayers' money that was pocketed by the insurance companies in respect of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I am just trying to have a-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: I am just trying to get to the factual position. Honest to God, Ms Murdock is telling me that this Bill does exactly the same as my Bill, which is blatant nonsense, even though I have told her what the section is. I can read it into the record word for word. It is simply untrue, and I cannot sit here and listen to her saying, "No, you are telling me black is white." It is not true. Ms...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Let us go to that point. I acknowledge that Britain has no national claims information database. I acknowledge that four years of motor insurance data and two years of public liability insurance data have been gathered. However, the Central Bank has informed us that it cannot inform the public or us, as Oireachtas Members, of the premium reductions related to a single policy. We may, for...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Is there any way to find out? When the national claims information database, NCID, reports, is there any way of us as Oireachtas Members or, indeed, the public to be able to see awards dropped by 42% and that is the direct result with regard to premia? How do we disentangle that it is due a bit to Covid and maybe a bit of investment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. Let us look at what happened in Britain. Many of Insurance Ireland's members are also the largest insurance companies. The seven largest insurance companies in Ireland are also the seven largest insurance companies in Britain. I refer to AXA, Allianz, Aviva, Zurich Insurance Group, RSA Insurance and those types of companies. In Britain, when the House of Commons voted through a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021: Discussion (4 May 2022)

Pearse Doherty: If we empower the NCID to seek exactly that type of information, would Insurance Ireland be happy with that?

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