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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: There is one bench in this room. I think that question was directed at Mr. Donagh.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Does anyone wish to come in on either Deputy Costello's or Senator Ward's questions, or even a point the witnesses might like to make to elaborate on their opening statements? I will give a little latitude. There are a couple of minutes left in this slot.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Will Mr. Guerin elaborate on that? How does that work in other jurisdictions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Okay. That makes a lot of sense.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Do any of the other witnesses want to comment on that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Deputy Daly is up next, but I want to finish out that engagement on Senator Ruane's final question. She asked about a human rights challenge. I would be interested in the views of the witnesses on that. It strikes me that if a constitutional issue arose in the context of a criminal trial, it would be pursued by the defence team and would be covered by the legal aid certificate. Equally,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Is that habeas corpus?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: If they win, however, they will get costs which could be substantial in a judicial review.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Would the view of the Bar Council of Ireland be that it should really come under a statutory rights scheme as per legal aid, rather than being on the-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Mr. Condon has his hand up. We are out of time but I will let him come in because he does not normally do so in his capacity as an observer. I am sure he has something to add to the argument, so I invite him to do that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: That is good to know. We are going to move on to the next slot, and Deputy Daly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: In practice, if someone required an engineer for a technical examination of a crime scene, would that application be made to the judge for assigning to the Legal Aid Board?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Directly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: That concludes Deputy Daly's slot. I will put a question before starting the second round. Senator Ward has indicated for the second round and may be the last member offering. The session is due to conclude at 7 p.m. anyway, so we are into the last round in any event. I will make a couple of points. The case made by a number of the witnesses concerning the cuts to legal aid fees for...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Not getting paid at all?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: From mixed practice.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: It is affecting both professions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: After Ms Phelan, I will call Mr. Donagh and anyone else who indicates.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: I wish to drill into those figures a little more. Perhaps Ms Phelan does not have the data with her, but do the one third of barristers who remain practising criminal law after six years typically supplement that work with civil practices, are they on the circuit more because it is easier to do both or do they get lucky and get busy criminal practices very quickly? How do they manage to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

James Lawless: Is that in the criminal sphere?

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