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Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: I am conscious of the time and I know members have other questions. If they do not mind, I ask the witnesses to hold on for another while so we can have a supplementary round of perhaps three minutes per member. Is that acceptable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: That is fine, and if any of the witnesses need a comfort break or anything like that, feel free to avail of the opportunity.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: That is appreciated. I call Deputy McGrath.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Keep it very brief.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Sorry, Deputy. We are over time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: In an attempt to be helpful, I ask Mr. Doyle if the Department could furnish us with the data on the number of social and affordable houses currently at stage 1, and what the average time is for progressing them. How long are they at stage 1?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Can Mr. Doyle furnish the committee with that data?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: I have a few concluding questions. I want to touch on fire and emergency services, which are a major issue across the board. Mr. Doyle mentioned the increasing expenditure last year because of HR issues, where retained firefighters had to go on strike, and I welcome the resolution of that particular issue. How many fire authorities do we have in the State?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: There are 31 fire authorities, therefore. What oversight does the Department have of fire services?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: How many chief fire officers do we have in the State?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: I think the figure is 21 chief fire officers. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Mr. Doyle might confirm that figure and give the committee a note on it. Does he know that would compare with a country such as Scotland, which has a population of around 5.7 million? In this State we have a population of 5.3 million. Does Mr. Doyle have any idea how that number of 21 chief fire officers would compare with a country such as Scotland?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Yes. There is one chief fire officer in Scotland, which has a larger population. The point I am making is related to value for money. Does Mr. Doyle think the duplication of roles and services across the State, in comparison with the likes of Scotland, is value for money? Is having that many fire authorities and that many chief fire officers value for money? The follow-on point is that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Who has oversight of procurement for the fire services? Is it the NDFEM or is it the local authority?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: The agency gives advice-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: I will give the example of a fire authority in Wicklow, which procured a considerable amount of equipment in, I think, 2020. It cost tens, if not hundreds, of thousand of euro. That equipment has yet to be used. The latest correspondence I got from the chief fire officer in Wicklow said that, after I had highlighted this issue, they are awaiting guidance at a national level for the use of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: It is probably both.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: It is being looked into. Correspondence has been sent to the Minister and it has been looked into. I will follow it up. The issue is broader than a Wicklow perspective. It is right across the board. There is no uniformity in terms of approach in respect of training, procurement or any of these issues in any of the fire authorities. That is the real problem. I have long advocated for the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: Mr. Doyle mentioned that the 2024 target was met.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 2 - Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 11 - Exceptional State Funding of the Peter McVerry Trust
Chapter 12 - Local Infrastructure Housing Activation Fund
Local Government Fund - Account 2023
(19 Jun 2025)

John Brady: The level of output.

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