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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: I apologise for not being here for my earlier slot as I had to attend oral questions in the Dáil. I thank Mr. McKeon and his colleagues for being here. I have a brief question on the public services card. I note that at the time the Data Protection Commission published its renowned report that the cost up until 2019 were declared as being €67.8 million within the ten years...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: So for that €98.4 million cost, which Mr. McKeon has said is a conservative figure to make sure that everything is incorporated, what date would that be attributable to now?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Is it just up to the end of 2019?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Mr. McKeon might come back on that and on the annual cost for 2020 and perhaps 2021 seeing as we are in its latter stage. According to the decision made by the Data Protection Commission, the card is illegal when made compulsory for accessing non-welfare services. This matter is being challenged through the courts so I will not say anything that will prejudice the case. In the event that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Would there be a substantial cost? I am asking as someone who would not fully understand-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: I am sure we can come back to that and I will look forward to receiving a written response to that later. I wish to return to the issue of local employment services. Deputy Verona Murphy mentioned the report of a committee. In fact two committees of this House, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: If the law has been so clear, how have we been operating a system since the mid to late 1990s? Is Mr. Keon essentially saying we were operating illegally?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Mr. McKeon referred to the EU regulation of 2014. Did the Chief State Solicitor’s office contact the Department out of the blue or how did that engagement take place? Who contacted who?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Does Mr. McKeon not know who brought it to the attention of the Chief State Solicitor’s office?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Dealing with this specific issue, the Attorney General has provided legal advice that essentially says that the current model is illegal. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Does that advice say that we need to go to procurement on a regional basis as opposed to the largely county structure that is currently in place?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: I accept that point and I prefaced that question by-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: -----saying “largely”. I am conscious of the weight that was being put on this legal advice. It is fair to say that the legal advice did not stipulate the geographical basis or otherwise of the tendering process. That was an internal decision by the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: On the directive-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Has Mr. McKeon’s Department returned at all to the Attorney General to point out that the EU directive he cited also states that a member state is not obliged to “contract out...the provision of services that they wish to provide themselves or to organise by means other than public contracts”. It would seem to me and according to some legal opinion that has been sought...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: -----a tendering process, in this instance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Just to clarify, has that particular article been referred to the Attorney General for an opinion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Is that on this specific article?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: I have to say that is not the view. Can I just ask, a number of services are offered and provided to the Department-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Matt Carthy: Has it sought legal advice from the Chief State Solicitor’s office in respect of all of its schemes?

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