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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: There is.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: I know and I understand from my own knowledge that the management of housing units is where the local authorities really fell down. They built their estates and the only guy who went in was to collect the rent and that was it, he came out again and did not care what happened after. I understand that. We have the Irish Council for Social Housing but is there any other organisation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is OK, I am just curious about that. The ICSH is the main operator in that area. The State balance sheet has been mentioned here as has EUROSTAT and it is a bit above the control of the AHBs. It is above the Minister's control because EUROSTAT will call this and it does not even matter what the Minister for Finance says because EUROSTAT will make those decisions. Can Mr. Hannigan...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Why only 14?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is EUROSTAT.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is fine. The only point to make is that they made a big case through the CSO on an all-of-Government level for Irish Water. I am just saying that it is all well and good domestically so that the witnesses understand where I am coming from.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is a big issue. The AHBs mention all of these billions of euro that are potentially available to them but then that competes with the Government in terms of the borrowing space.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Hannigan was talking about the borrowing and making it more attractive, professional and sustainable for the long term and he mentioned security being available but in his earlier comments he said that none of this security has ever been called in in the history of the State so it cannot be as big a selling point.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: My next question relates to borrowings. When are they paid back? I have not looked at this closely but I get the impression that housing bodies are servicing debt and making provision for maintenance but that the debt will still be on their balance sheets 20 years from now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Is it like a balloon payment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is no way to run anything. When people buy cars with balloon payments we wonder what they were thinking. We know of people who warehouse part of their debt and pay interest only and then all of a sudden, they are facing huge bills. The idea of storing up a balloon payment goes against the grain in terms-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is a bit like a two generation mortgage for the organisations. The first one can take 30 years and then they start with the next one.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: I have reservations about a scheme that is based on not paying back debt for at least 20 years. I understand that is the model but I would not invent such a model if I was starting from scratch.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but I am sure the witnesses understand the point I am making. In terms of practical issues, I am interested in transfers. We are talking now about people rather than houses, bricks and mortar. If there are issues with tenants of approved housing bodies and those tenants need a transfer, how easy is that to accomplish? Transfers are probably relatively easy for the larger housing...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask the witnesses to outline their procurement processes when they want to develop a housing scheme of 20 to 40 houses, for example. Are they subject to the same procurement rules as local authorities?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: I have heard complaints that approved housing bodies have their own shortlists of preferred tenderers and that some just go to them-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: Let us just say an approved housing body has a greenfield site for the development of 30 to 50 houses. Does it place an advertisement on eTenders?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: What is the total number of staff working for the 547 bodies involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government
(21 Feb 2019)

Seán Fleming: No, I asked about staff----

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