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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: I am referring specifically to this institution. The HEA does a very detailed analysis but I presume the first box to be ticked in any analysis is whether there is a certified set of accounts.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: With that yes-or-no question, the answer was "No" for five years.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: That is five years ago. For the past five years, in the conversations with people from NCAD, did Mr. Roche did not ask at any stage how many times the audit committee had met? Better still, did he not ask why the accounts were not ready?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: I asked Mr. Roche and maybe he would like to comment.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: That is not the question I asked. I know there is an audit committee and that such a committee is required under the code of governance. Given that he knew for five years that there were no certified accounts, there are obviously problems in the institution. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Did anybody in the HEA, which over this timeframe pumped €100...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: That is not the question I asked.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Does Mr. Boland think it was a failure on his part not to ask that question?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: I want to move on to the Department of Education and Skills but before I do so, is Mr. Boland satisfied that, with €100 million in limbo because of a lack of certified accounts over five years, taking the college's word in informal conversations without asking if the audit had met or for the minutes of the committee was an appropriate course of action?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: I finally got an answer. I asked that question approximately 15 minutes ago.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Given the huge gaps in governance, will Mr. Boland describe how he would define appropriate governance?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: One would imagine the production of accounts would be part of that.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: The HEA failed in that regard. If that is Mr. Boland's definition of appropriate governance, he failed to intervene to ensure the taxpayer was protected.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: What is Mr. Ó Foghlú's reaction to this? We vote money to the HEA through his Department for allocation to individual colleges. What we have heard in the past ten minutes, as well as the findings of the report by the Comptroller and Auditor General, reveals governance issues not only in the NCAD but also in the HEA.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Who informed the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: The HEA first informed the Department in 2013.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Did it come as a surprise that the same problem existed between 2009 and 2013 but the HEA did not tell the Department about it?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Can Mr. Ó Foghlú return to my question about the gap that existed between 2009 and 2013? Am I correct to say he was not informed by the HEA about the problems that existed during that period?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: What response did the Department make to the HEA when it was told about the problem in 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements of the Higher Education Authority 2013
General Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Accountability and Governance on the National College of Art and Design
(22 Jan 2015)

Patrick O'Donovan: Does Mr. Ó Foghlú think it appropriate that between 2009 and 2013 the HEA did not inform the Department?

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