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Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: For the record, I was going to say to the Deputies that I would look at the point their amendments had made about grandnieces and grandnephews. We spoke to Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, and we may be able to do something on Report Stage. We will do that irrespective of them not being here to move the amendment.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I move amendment No. 2: “In page 9, line 20, to delete “may be, and a person whose human remains have been recovered” and substitute “may be, on the one hand and a person whose human remains have been recovered on the other hand”.” This is a small, technical amendment which seeks to provide clarity in relation to the definition of familial link....

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I move amendment No. 3: “In page 9, line 24, after “means” to insert “, in relation to recovered human remains or samples taken from those remains,”.” Again, this is a minor technical amendment that aims to clarify the final arrangements related to “recovered human remains”, as well as any samples taken from them for the purposes of...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: Yes, it does. That is our understanding of the use of the term “ordinarily” here. It can refer to a person who was resident for one night in an institution. Indeed, unfortunately, considering so many of these children are children who died very shortly after childbirth, the term would have to encompass that in order to ensure that they fell with the remit of this legislation....

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: We will touch base with the Parliamentary Counsel about it. I will engage with Deputy Cairns about what their clarification was. If either side feels that an amendment is necessary on Report Stage, such an amendment can be brought forward.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I cannot accept these amendments. If they were accepted they would fundamentally change the legislation in what it is trying to achieve. Based on these amendments, if a person dies while resident in an institution, and that is any residential facility in respect of which a public body had or has a relevant role, that alone would be sufficient reason for the Government to consider making an...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: Central to what this legislation is trying to address is the issue of manifestly inappropriate burials, and they have to be centrally linked to an individual's ordinary residence, which is residence for one day within that particular institution. To do as the Deputy is proposing would mean that somebody would only have to be ordinarily resident in the institution. That removes the central...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: If there is a burial that is inappropriate in another site, this legislation can apply. The legislation is not site-specific. It can apply to any situation where a manifestly inappropriate burial is located. However, we also must recognise that the scale of what we are doing here, the scale of the exhumation and recovery of human remains, is a very significant intervention. In the context...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: Yes, and ordinarily resident. With regard to ordinarily resident, in the situation the Deputy described where a child was born and it was a stillbirth in the hospital, that child would fit within the criteria of the legislation. There would not be any concern that a child in that situation would be excluded from the ambit of the legislation.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: My understanding is that a child of a mother who was institutionalised in that institution and was stillborn there would fall within the criteria of this legislation.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: The purpose of this legislation is to provide for the excavation, recovery, analysis, identification and dignified reburial of human remains buried in manifestly inappropriate manner. This is the legislative gap that the Bill seeks to fill in order that these interventions can take place at Tuam and at any other site or similar circumstances come to light. For that reason, I am not in a...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: During the course of the pre-legislative scrutiny debate, we went back and forth on this in terms of where jurisdictions begin and end. At that time we were concerned to draw clear distinction between the actions of this agency and the actions of the coroner. At that time, there was fear that this was an attempt to limit the coroner's role and in particular, undermine the scope for...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I reiterate that this Bill is not site-specific to Tuam. We all recognise the need to excavate the site in Tuam and that process will begin as soon as this legislation is passed. A specific decision was taken that this legislation is not site-specific. The issue that is being addressed here brings us back to that question of at what point the Government and the State make the very...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I move amendment No. 8: In page 11, lines 20 and 21, after “section 48” to insert “orsection 75(7)”. These amendments seek to clarify in the legislation the actions that an adjudicator or the director must undertake following an appeal. Amendment No. 70 provides for circumstances where an appellant dies or becomes incapacitated before an adjudicator has made a...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I move amendment No. 9: In page 11, line 22, to delete “that section” and substitute “section 48”.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: I want to flag that I will be bringing an amendment to section 4 on Report Stage to provide for the service of notices and other documents on owners and occupiers of land or premises where the name of the owner or occupier of the land or premises cannot be ascertained.

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: We are bringing forward robust legislation. We have gone through a detailed process. We have strengthened the Bill, listened and made changes along the way to try to strengthen it. Later in this session we will indicate further changes to ensure that this legislation is as robust as possible and that it can create a process to bring some relief and succour to relatives, such as those in...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: While some legislative provisions do have "shall", I am not aware of any where "shall" is used to direct the Cabinet to do something. In terms of this specific recommendation, section 7(1) currently states: "Subject to subsection (2), the Government may, from time to time, having considered a proposal made by a relevant Minister" and Deputy Cairns is saying it should be "shall" rather than...

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: This Government has acted, including to bring forward this piece of legislation. It has engaged-----

Select Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Institutional Burials Bill 2022: Committee Stage (3 May 2022)

Roderic O'Gorman: If I could conclude my point, this Government has acted by bringing forward this legislation and making a very clear commitment that it will undertake investigation in Tuam. In this year's budget, it has brought forward a very significant allocation to my Department so we can begin that work. That money is available now. I am not looking to get it in budget 2023. It is available to begin...