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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department found out about this matter at the end of August. I accept that it could have been early September given the time of year and all of that. I have no issue with that. Did the Minister attempt to meet with or inform the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform between the end of August and September and 9 November? If so, when, and what happened?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: He did not. I was at the Committee of Public Accounts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: No. We need a bit more-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department knew formally in late August or early September. I am not worried about exactly which.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department attempted by email, which I am sure it can publish and make available - I thank the Minister for nodding - to meet with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to discuss this. Is it correct that the Department requested formally meetings with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Breslin said October.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Why did the meeting not take place between the end of August and 9 November?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: September or whenever it was.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Attempts were made in October by the Department of Health to say to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that an issue was building and that the Departments needed to talk. It did not happen until 9 November.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department of Health knew there was a significant overrun of potentially €200 million and an ongoing budgetary process. The Department will release correspondence to us that shows it attempted to sit down with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to discuss this issue whereby an official under Circular 12/2010 was obliged to tell his or her own Minister and Secretary...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I agree. I am just bringing that in from my own business.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I accept what the Minister said about the €61 million in 2017 and those issues. I will go through some minutes that would raise other concerns relating to other issues. We know that this is a serious escalation. The Minister told us that he was shocked in late August, and, to be polite, "annoyed". He had budget negotiations going on in parallel. He looked for meetings with the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Let us call a spade a spade. We knew around here that it was around €200 million. We have established that it was at least that on some level. In parallel, the Department was engaged in budget negotiations. Maybe there was concern that one would be conflated with the other. I do not want to suggest that but there may have been an issue. This beggars belief for any member of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Where did the Minister write that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: That is fine with regard to the €61 million but not the €200 million.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I am going to come back to the €200 million because I do not agree with what the Minister said. On a number of occasions now, I have asked Mr. Breslin for the briefing note given to the Minister on 27 August. He said he would give it to us. This is the third time I have asked for it. Can he ask one of his officials now to get it and send it to members of this committee before we...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: That is fine, but this is my third time asking for it and the third meeting at which I have done so.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Breslin has not done it to date. I have asked for it numerous times.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: It should have happened. I know I keep saying that. I have already asked for the correspondence. If I have to table a parliamentary question, it will be put off for weeks upon weeks. I have had to fight for information. Through the Chair and with the members' agreement, I ask for the correspondence between the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion (6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Some of us ask pertinent parliamentary questions and that is another way to get information. I have pointed out to the Minister and Secretary General that sometimes, one must follow up parliamentary questions to get documentation. I agree with the Chairman that it does seem bizarre. I have asked for the memo that went to the Minister in August on at least three occasions now. I do not...