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Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: I told Mr. Watt that he would be accused of something before he left here today.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: I will give an example when Mr. Watt is finished speaking.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: I would make the case to Mr. Watt that this is not just about the money. He is using figures such as €77 million, €150 million and so forth but for almost a year now we have been dealing with the HSE and the way it awards contracts. In many cases there is a lack of competitive tendering. The cases we have been dealing with involve allegations of very serious child abuse and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: In this case, a Garda investigation remains ongoing but the proposals are there and have been accepted. Mr. Watt said that one corrects things as one goes along and that is fine but that has not been our experience with the HSE. It had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into agreeing to change its policy when it came to awarding incredibly important contracts. We are not talking about...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Let us call a spade a spade. The HSE is the worst offender. It is not just me making that analysis. The Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Earlier, the Chairman asked about the Fennelly commission and I asked about the inquiry into the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC. I am not going to stray into policy or ask Mr. Watt any policy questions. However, I want to go through this again. The committee is still dealing with the legacy costs of tribunals. For example, the figure of €159 million comes to mind when we...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: In his opening statement, Mr. Watt stated, “The public spending code provides that appraisals and detailed assessments should be carried out before Exchequer resources are committed.” He also said the Government did not expect the IBRC inquiry to be eight years at the time when it made the decision to set it up. Now that there is an expectation that the IBRC inquiry could take...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: I am asking about the process.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: This is important for the public, in fairness. If, for example, the assessment from the individual who is conducting this investigation is that it could take eight years, which is not hypothetical because it has been in the media, what does the Department do when it discovers that? Does it have input? Does Mr. Watt give his opinion and tell his Minister we have a problem here? Does he say...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: My guess is that some people in the public would say that IBRC should be investigated. However, if one puts a realistic cost tag on it, then the public would say it is not so sure. Are the projections made out of thin air? It seems to me that this could be the case. There was no expectation that this inquiry would take as long as some people are saying it would take. That is a relevant...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Is Mr Watt saying that potentially this could be revisited? If Mr. Watt puts a different price tag on it-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Okay, if it is found it will cost four times more than the original analysis, does Mr. Watt then say to his Minister a cap needs to be put on this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: That is fair enough. I want to ask Mr. Watt about recruitment. He said some things about the private sector. We deal with this in the committee a little. We dealt with the Department of Justice and Equality recently over not hiring a Secretary General. Three people in the interview process were not deemed appropriate to be offered the position. That is high-end in the public sector....

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: I would rather no one sued me.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: There is a better chance of it if there are more lawyers. I am not trying to be funny but they view it differently. Mr. Watt answered the question when it comes to doctors and nurses but I am unsure whether he has really dealt with this in enough detail when it comes to the pressures relating to hiring and recruitment within the public sector. The average age within the public sector is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Mr. Watt is saying that in many cases, the private sector is beating the public sector when it comes to recruitment of individuals in certain sectors. Where are the critical areas within the public sector now? Mr. Watt referred to information and communications technology. Are there any others?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: When it came up earlier, Mr. Watt was asked what he would do about it. I am unsure whether Mr. Watt gave a really-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 18 - Shared Services
Vote 41 - Office of Government Procurement
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Chapter 5 - Management of Government Grants
Chapter 6 - Payroll Accrual for National Accounts
Chapter 7 - National Lottery Fund
(19 Nov 2015)

John Deasy: Apart from ICT, are there any other areas?

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