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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: I never said it was one way or another. I am just asking a few questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Is it the case that the head of TLAC is the chair of TLAC?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: His name is Conor Brady. Is that right?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: He is a former editor of The Irish Times. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: I have an article in front of me that he wrote. It is entitled "The Civil Service is a Game with No Consequences". He wrote that the response to failure was "sideways moves" and "easy exits". He was writing at the time of a change at the top of the HSE. Did Mr. Fraser approach Conor Brady to be the head of TLAC?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Who appoints a person to that role?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Which Taoiseach and which Minister recruited or made the appointments in this case? Is it done by way of approaching someone to ask if he or she would be prepared to take on this role? How is it done?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: How long has the current chairman been a member of TLAC?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Presumably, Mr. Fraser remembers being on TLAC when he was neither a member nor the chair. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Like Deputy Stanley, I would not be questioning anybody's qualifications. I must allude to questioning the then Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about a €10 million mistake that was made by the Office of Public Works, OPW. I questioned the then chief commissioner of the OPW as to whether there was a disciplinary process afoot because somebody had...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: It was not a conversation. This is a matter of public record.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Does Mr. Fraser not think that he should? Is it the case that he, as the Secretary General to the Government, supports a culture that sees loss of moneys due to mistakes as learning experiences, as was the case with the well publicised mistake by the commissioners in the OPW, relative to Miesian Plaza, which has realised a loss of €10 million to the people? The Secretary General of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Mr. Fraser is responsible for them all. Is he not the head of the Civil Service?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: The Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach used to be head of the Civil Service. Did that role not fall to Mr. Fraser?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: So there is nobody in charge. Is that the case?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: I am talking about the loss of taxpayers' money. The head of TLAC, who wrote that the Civil Service is a game with no consequences went on to say the response to failure is "sideways moves" and "easy exits". The Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform told me at the Committee of Public Accounts – the record will show it – that we do not have a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: I gave Mr. Fraser an example that is in the public domain. In fact, the then Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's first answer at the Committee of Public Accounts meeting, which makes me even more worried, was that he was not even aware that the commissioners in the OPW made such a banana maths basic mistake that lost €10 million of taxpayers' money...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: I have some very quick, rapid-fire, buzzer-round questions, if the Secretary General does not mind. Did the Minister for Health at the meeting in November - and I ask this question because it is not in the minutes - say that he wanted this man?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Remuneration of Senior Civil Servants: Discussion (2 Jun 2021)

Marc MacSharry: Did any of the other attendees at the meeting say that they wanted this man?

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