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Payment of Wages (Amendment) (Tips and Gratuities) Bill 2022 [Seanad]: Second Stage (7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I thank Deputy Collins. Yes. I met her. She spoke at a May Day conference that we held just a few months ago. She was very impressive. It is easy to sit on the other side when you win, but she told us about the toll it took on her to get to the point where they did win on that and how nothing much has changed for other people that she knows, who she is trying to organise within the...

Payment of Wages (Amendment) (Tips and Gratuities) Bill 2022 [Seanad]: Second Stage (7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Like others, I will be supporting this Bill and its progress. Probably, the only surprising aspect is that workers require this kind of protection. Most people would have assumed that when a tip is given, the tip goes to the worker. One in five workers in the State is classed as low paid, that is, approximately 370,000 people. Ireland's rate of low pay is significantly above the EU...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I welcome the witnesses. We have a unique system of education in this country in that we do not have a national system with clear lines of ownership. What does the State own? I know we pay money to build schools but do we have a comprehensive valuation of estates, ownership and leases? What do we actually own and where can that information be found?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I remind Mr. O'Leary that I have very limited time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I do not want all my time used up on this as I have other questions to ask.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: In the case of the 87%, if the State has constructed those schools and the patron owns them, in a situation where there is a declining demographic and not all the schools are needed, who sells them and who benefits from the sale?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Can the witnesses give us some documentation showing details of assets in respect of which public funding has been given and how that funding is secured? I also want to know where we are at in terms of lease agreements concluding. A note on that would be useful because we do not have time today to go through it in the kind of detail that is needed. We may well have to come back to it. Can...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: They tend to feature on television programmes where there is a transformation or something.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: That can be a very good use as well. We all have concentrated on our own areas, and possibly because it is easier to describe things. Kildare - I represent part of it - doubled in population between the 1970s and the 1990s and it doubled in population again between the 1990s and now. According to the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO, the largest class sizes in the country are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: If Mr. Loftus cannot answer me about that particular school, I would like to get an answer or a note on that because I am finding it difficult to get information by way of parliamentary question. However, that, effectively, is what has happened. I would like to ask Mr. Loftus about another one where there was a problem. It was on the building programme and should have commenced in 2018....

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Was there a project management issue here?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I will come back.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Coming back to who owns the schools, there is a divestment programme. It is moving slowly but one exists. What happens when schools are divested and there is a new patron? Does the charity change? Does it go back to the State? What happens when completely new schools are built and there is patronage? Who owns a school in that case? Is it the Minister for Education or is it the charity...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What happens with patronage if it is a Catholic or Protestant school?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, I understand that. Where does the school asset the State has paid for reside?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Irrespective of the patronage.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What about the divestment aspect? Does that come back to the State?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What does that actually mean in simple terms? Does the patronage change?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What happens in the context of the charity underpinning the school? Where does the asset then reside?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Is there no clawback, for example, if the building was constructed in the 1980s and mostly built with public funds? There was always a contribution as well, if you like, but often that contribution came from the community rather than the religious institution. What happens in those situations?

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