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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: This is Department waffle.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Mr. McKeon says there is a long list of stakeholders. I am asking a simple question, namely, give me an example of one stakeholder so that we, as a committee, can consider who is on the list and choose ourselves, without his prompting, whether to call them into this committee and ask the question because this is a problem. There is €4.2 million at stake. We might make fewer mistakes...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: No. Mr. McKeon got an opportunity to make an opening statement. I mean no disrespect to Ms Vaughan but I have a very limited amount of time. I am sure she has a lot to say in terms of the positives but we are not here to celebrate the positives; we are here to focus on areas we can improve.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Perhaps after this meeting the Department can send a full list of stakeholders to the clerk to the committee and we, as a committee, can determine whether we want to bring in a percentage of them to ask about this process. I have other questions so will I move on?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: There is no issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I am glad Mr. McKeon said it because he has highlighted something on which we need to focus.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: A huge percentage of appeals are successful. That either means we are not doing our job correctly or others are subverting the process. We need to examine that because €4.2 million is being spent on the appeals office that I am sure could be better spent on carer's allowance or whatever. Is there cross-departmental consistency on determining criteria? Does Mr. McKeon sit down with...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: After 24 years of age one is independent in terms of jobseeker's allowance. Is it correct that once one reaches 24, whether one is living at home or not and regardless of one's income, one is independent?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: A person aged over 23 who qualifies for back-to-education allowance who had been living at home with his or her parents the previous October is deemed independent and as a result refused financial support from SUSI.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I understand exactly what the Department does. Is there a cross-departmental link so there is consistency of interpretation? A person is independent at 24. However, because a person lives at home, even though he or she qualifies for everything and the system wants to get people back to work and educate them, because a person happened to be living at home the previous October as a...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Could I respectfully ask-----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: -----that we link the Departments and develop consistency on that.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: They are not the issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: That is not our experience in terms of somebody trying to get back into education and get fees and so on.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Yes, but the person is getting no assistance with fees.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: That is the problem. Mr. McKeon might interlink with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, or Department of Education and Skills and drop us a note back following that engagement because there is an inconsistency there.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: We only get one shot at Mr. McKeon's Department once a year. I am sure Mr. McKeon has lots of opportunities to talk to colleagues cross-departmentally. In order to save us a year and the people money, perhaps Mr. McKeon could have a chat with the Secretary General of each of these Departments and drop us a note back on it. It is not rocket science but if Mr. McKeon could do that, it would...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Our issue is solely taxpayer's money and services to the people. It is not a gold star for one Department and a slap on the wrist for the other. It is a case of working together and getting the optimum outcome because we cannot have inconsistencies in the determination of schemes which ultimately discriminate against people. That is the issue. Mr. McKeon said that in terms of...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I must say it was very good. I noted a change. I remember when the Department did things in the past it would say it was an announcement by the Department. Is that true?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I noticed lately the advertisements have the footer, "A Government of Ireland announcement."

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