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Children and Family Relationships (Amendment) Bill 2023: Second Stage [Private Members] (25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Okay.

Children and Family Relationships (Amendment) Bill 2023: Second Stage [Private Members] (25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: I thank the Labour Party and Deputy Bacik for bringing this important legislation. I also thank the advocacy groups for all their work on the issue. A number of them are in the Gallery this evening to listen to this very important debate and I welcome them. Sinn Féin will be supporting this critical legislation. As has already been outlined, the Bill works to address current gaps...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: The witnesses are very welcome here this morning. I want to start off with the issue of bogus self-employment. I welcome the Supreme Court judgment of last year, which I describe as a landmark decision on the issue. I will ask Mr. Cody a "Yes" or "No" question. Does he agree that it is a landmark decision on the issue of bogus self-employment?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: I appreciate that. So does Mr. Cody agree that it is a landmark decision?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: I will get into a little bit more detail about courier drivers and the likes in a moment but I want to talk about bogus self-employment in the first instance. Does Mr. Cody agree that some employers who bogusly force their employees into self-employment are committing fraud?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Is it fraud? Would Mr. Cody class it as fraud?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Is it fraud if an employer knowingly forces an employee to be self-employed in order that the employer can forgo its employer PRSI? It is a simple "Yes" or "No".question. I am not talking about the court case or anything like that. Would Mr. Cody deem it to be fraud if an employer knowingly forces an employee to go self-employed?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Has Revenue ever tried to ascertain a figure as to how much is lost to the State on an annual basis? Figures have been put out there. For example, over an eight-year period ICTU estimated a loss of €640 million in the construction sector alone. We know bogus self-employment is not just prevalent within the construction sector, it is in the media, as we saw with RTÉ. I will...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Does Mr. Cody dispute the figures produced by ICTU?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: On what basis?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Is Mr. Cody saying that based on comprehensive analysis by Revenue?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Okay. That is based on site visits and the scope section.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: I am certainly not implying that it is simple, but I make the point to Mr. Cody that comprehensive analysis has been carried out to show that in the construction sector alone, €640 million has been lost to the State over an eight-year period. If we extend that into all of the other sectors, that is potentially a massive loss in terms of revenue to the State over a sustained period. ...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Is that in the code of practice?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Okay. Does Mr. Cody dispute that any precedential criteria were given to the classification of couriers going back to 1997?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: I am just conscious of the clock. What actions or work have been taken by Revenue since the Supreme Court decision last year to ascertain how much money has been lost over a lengthy period?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: No. I am aware of that but what specific work has been carried out with a view to ascertaining how much has been lost to the State by the wrongful classification of courier drivers?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: Is Revenue asking them to voluntarily go and do that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: What specifically is Revenue doing in terms of an investigation? I am conscious, as is Mr. Cody, that a report on this specific issue was published by the Committee of Public Accounts back in 2021. It made a very serious recommendation that an independent investigation would be carried out. Has that recommendation ever being acted upon? Given the Supreme Court judgment of last year is...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

John Brady: So Revenue is not going to listen to the recommendation from the committee that after-----

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