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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: My policy is to make my remarks on the Bill section by section as the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, dealt with the overall thrust of the Bill on Second Stage in the Dáil. With the consent of the committee, I will confine my comments to each section.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I believe the criteria that are in place for access to the precautionary condition credit line, PCCL, are appropriate. I will outline a number of reasons that is the case. The first is it is important to be clear about what are the circumstances in which the PCCL could be accessed. They could, for example, apply due to a natural event due to an earthquake. It is all about focusing the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: We are in an incredibly unique situation. I anticipate that by the time we move into next year, the number of countries that would be in excess of the 3% deficit requirement will begin to change and one will see more countries - due to economic growth and due, I hope, to the retreat of the economic consequences of Covid-19 - fall at or below 3%. In any event, if there is change in the SGP...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Deputy Doherty will be well aware that I do not have available to me the deficit trajectory that Italy might need to follow in those circumstances. In evaluating the point that the Deputy is making, it is worth emphasising that the Government of the same country, Italy, is committed to the ratification of this treaty too. All the countries that the Deputy has named that are currently in...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Why are the Italian Government, the Belgian Government, the German Government and all the governments the Deputy has listed, committed to implementing this treaty? They see the debt dynamics to which the Deputy refers, and they understand what could be the implications of having to put in place excessive deficit reduction, but they are committed to implementing this treaty. Why are they?...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I will make a final point on the section, if the Deputy is moving on. The Deputy has said there is a view by many that this is seen as a missed opportunity. Those views may well be expressed but in my other role as president of the Eurogroup, I played a role in brokering this agreement. All of the governments that are in the Eurogroup have signed up to this. All of them have. If a view...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: In any event, any letter of intent will be the subject of negotiations. The Deputy should bear with me. I want a colleague to confirm to me what is the technical detail and technical difference, which I will give to the committee in one moment, in order to answer the Deputy's question fully. Subject to further confirmation, which I will supply to the Deputy before Report Stage, I am...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: The negotiation would be between the member state and, in this case, the ESM.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Negotiation would arise as to what the nature of the measures to be undertaken by a country would be, over what timeframe and how. That would be the subject of a negotiation between the government of the country and the ESM.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I expect that it would contain commitments as to how borrowing would be reduced and over how long a period. Then it would be up to the ESM and the member state engaging with the ESM what level of detail it would go into as to how that borrowing would be reduced.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I imagine that great efforts would be made to avoid such a situation because I imagine that if a country were in need of a credit line from the ESM, and if those negotiations were then to break down, it could only make an acute situation even worse. Therefore, while I suppose that could be possible theoretically, I imagine that all efforts would be expended to avoid it happening.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: No, we would not need to change the legislation, but the board of governors of the ESM would then be involved in determining the eligibility criteria. As I said, I expect that the eligibility criteria the ESM would set would be consistent with the SGP at that point. The board of governors would matter in such circumstances.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: No, I am not. This is why I have said the operation of this treaty and of these procedures would have to be consistent with the rules as they exist at any point. I do not expect - nor would it happen - that the board of governors of the ESM would take a decision that would be different from the letter or spirit of the fiscal rules.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I will check that before we get to Report Stage, but it is such an unlikely possibility that I would be surprised if there were a legal provision for it in place. The members of the board of governors of the ESM are, in many cases, the finance ministers of ECOFIN anyway, so the finance ministers themselves or their representatives will be involved in making this decision. The latter makes...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Does the Deputy mean give assurances regarding the future conditionality that could be involved if this facility were to be accessed?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I cannot give such an assurance because the conditionality would depend on the economic circumstances at the particular point in time and the nature of the crisis. I am therefore not in a position to give the Deputy a blanket assurance as to what the conditions could be.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes, but the people who would be involved in making the decisions in this regard would be very much aware of that as a risk. We are talking about a member state government and a finance minister negotiating to secure additional funding in a time of crisis. In such a case the negotiation to which I referred earlier would look to strike the best possible balance between getting the member...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I never said that would happen. I said this was a negotiated outcome and other countries would be involved and I pointed to the acknowledgement that there is conditionality. I never, in any of my statements, said this would be guided by altruism alone and purely the interests of one country. This is a negotiated outcome, as I have said repeatedly in my presentation. The reason is that...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Paschal Donohoe: I will get a note on that now. I ask the committee to bear with me. The conditionality involved, at a bare minimum, is the obvious point that the SRF, including the share of the ESM funding the SRF, is funded by contributions banks make. That is a profound difference from where we were a decade ago. However, if the Deputy takes me through his other questions, I will see-----

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