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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I am the first speaker so cannot do so.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: This morning we are meeting An Garda Síochána regarding the 2017 appropriation accounts, Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána, and Report on the Accounts of the Public Service 2017, chapter 7 - management of overtime expenditure in An Garda Síochána. We are joined by the Commissioner, Mr. Drew Harris; Mr. John Twomey, deputy commissioner, policing and security; Mr. Joseph...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Commissioner Harris, can we have your opening statement, please?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Thank you, Chairman. You made a timely reappearance. I welcome all the witnesses. I will start of by focusing on overtime and then will put some questions at the end with regard to the appropriation side of things. There seems to have been a serious spike in overtime in 2017 by comparison with 2014. Obviously, that was the year there was a pay deal for An Garda Síochána....

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Of course.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I understand that there were specific issues relating to the year in question. We all remember what was happening in the context of the drug-related feud at the time. There was a request made to the Department of Justice and Equality for an additional €44.2 million. There was a great deal going on at that time and serious issues had arisen. There is not one member of this committee...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Is Mr. Harris talking about the overtime since last September?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I ask Mr. Harris to clarify. The figures we saw were for September to September. Is that the period being used?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: So Mr. Harris has no management information.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: It looks backwards.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I presume multi-annual budgets would result in a better process for the organisation. That comes jumping out of this analysis. We would highly recommend them. Just dropping the hammer on a budget in a system that is so demand led seems to be a real issue. There are a couple of other related points. Having looked through this, I believe no public representative could fail to justify...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: To be fair to gardaí, they are using their private phones all the time. Without them, they would be lost.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I have one more question on overtime. When it is dealt with, I will move on to a couple of questions on appropriation. The questions jump around a little. Garda sergeants and inspectors are covered. What was the position pro rata in 2017, in particular? At higher ranks, there were serious scheduled workloads because of the year that was in it. Pro rata, how was this dealt with as regards...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: It is fixed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: One has to remember that while we are talking, the public is watching. Above the rank of inspector, there is no overtime and there are no extra costs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Perfect. It was a very simple question. To refresh, multi-annual budgets, IT and civilianisation are critical to the issues we just spoke about. Let me deal with a few other issues. In the appropriation accounts, there are capital commitments issues concerning Galway and Kevin Street. There seems to be a pattern as regards what happened in respect of both. Could that be explained?...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Does Mr. Nugent believe it should be different?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Nugent might remind people of his view.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: The organisation is dependent on the OPW.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána
Chapter 7 - Management of Overtime Expenditure in An Garda Síochána (9 May 2019)

Alan Kelly: I ask the Commissioner to comment.