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Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is purely coincidental.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I will not ask you to elaborate on those. The terms of reference for this investigation do not make very happy reading. The Comptroller and Auditor General was unhappy with the accounts. It was stated that Mr. McCarthy "had sight" of the accounts. I want to ensure that I get my terminology right. He had sight of the accounts but could not complete the audit process. Am I right?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. McCarthy then communicated with Mr. Ashe or with his organisation and sought further information. Is that not right?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What was the quality of the responses received?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I appreciate that. Suffice it to say that, having raised issues and corresponding with Mr. Ashe's organisation, matters were not resolved, which led to this investigation. One of the terms of reference is "To examine and report on the robustness of the ETB’s responses to the issues raised in the C&AG Audit".

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Of course.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is the first bullet point.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is interesting that the investigation is to identify "any lacunae, inconsistencies or insufficient clarity in the responses provided" to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is interesting that the first port of call for the investigation was to examine whether Mr. Ashe was less than forthcoming in his responses to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Who would have signed the letters...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am only asking about the sequence of events.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am aware of section 40 of the Act.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I would expect nothing less. I also expect Mr. Ashe to answer these questions, which do not trespass on the substantive matters or on any view at which the investigator might arrive. I am asking Mr. Ashe regarding who signed the letters when his organisation corresponded with Mr. McCarthy?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Who gave Mr. Ashe that advice?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. Ashe has been incorrectly advised. When his organisation corresponded with Mr. McCarthy, who signed off on the letters? Whose signature was on them? Mr. McCarthy might clarify for me. What is the practice? When Ms McGeever's ETB corresponds with the Comptroller and Auditor General, who signs off on the letters?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Ms McGeever and the chair. I assume that would be standard practice, so the letters which went to the Comptroller and Auditor General would have carried the signatures of Mr. Ashe and Mr. Ruttle. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: So the first item on the agenda of the investigator-----

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Of course.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Of course. Has Mr. Ruttle been similarly advised by Dr. Thorn?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: That is very interesting. In the course of that meeting, did he advise Mr. Ruttle not to answer questions at this committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am aware of the timescale.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I share the Chairman's concerns. With the greatest respect to Mr. Ó Foghlú, the Department, Mr. Ashe, Mr. Ruttle and Dr. Thorn, this is a committee of the Oireachtas; it is not the local bingo club or a forum one can attend and decide whether one will answer questions. The witnesses' organisations are in receipt of massive amounts of public money. There are now matters of...

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