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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Should you not confirm it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: I want to go back to the beginning of the meeting to clarify something. We did our best to have the meeting and be constructive about it. Just to be helpful, we invited members of two other committees - the budgetary committee and the health committee - because of the number of invitations Mr. Watt had received. We notified the other committee members. In our correspondence to Mr. Watt,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: We will then invite Mr. Quinn separately. Is that an option?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: The role of the Comptroller and Auditor General comes within the remit of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as well. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: The reports-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Could the Comptroller and Auditor General have been asked to do the report instead of PwC? Did the Department ever consider that, because of the fact that he is-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: He did some reports on this anyway.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: He did a value for money report.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: There was no consultation with Mr. Watt on that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: This problem was beginning to grow and emerge as a serious issue. In the context of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, would Mr. Watt not have thought of stating to the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Minister that it would have been a good idea to get an independent assessment in place to report directly back? I am...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: All this had occurred.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: To get to the end of this, it started off with the national children's hospital as a project. The Government wanted to achieve it. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, had a role in respect of advice up to 2014. That is according to Mr. Watt's own note. I am reading from that. At one stage, therefore, the NDFA was involved. The Government, that is the Cabinet, made the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Yes. The HSE ended up deciding to have PwC involved. Mr. Watt's Department has the contracts committee. Advice was given by the OGP directly to the national children's hospital board and the Department had someone on that board. In spite of all that Government involvement, from political aspects to the various structures I have mentioned, it has been possible, collectively, to make a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: No.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: This involves the contract details and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Health and the HSE. How did all those bodies come together and arrive at a situation where not only can we not get a handle on how much this is going to cost us when it is finished, but we cannot even get a handle on the efficiency of the spending or the bad spending that took place.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: No, because that person would be sacked.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: It works like that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: I want to finish on Mr. Watt's two notes. He referred to the role of the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, and that of the chief procurement officer, CPO. Mr. Watt stated that the CPO was satisfied that matters were being addressed by the board and reported through the governance arrangements established by the HSE and the Department of Health. He went on to state that the CPO would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: It is what I take from that. I would like to know what was he reporting to the Minister. He was satisfied that the process was working, which means he was satisfied that the then-chairman was reporting to the Minister.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: How do I find out what he was reporting to the Minister?

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