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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I will not open it up at this stage. I am going to go to Deputy Pringle and then we can come back, possibly, later on.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I call Mr. Keaveney,.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: My thanks to Mr. Keaveney. Perhaps Ms Brady would like to make a brief contribution.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I thank Ms Brady very much and invite Mr. Dalton to speak. Briefly, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I thank Mr. Dalton and call Deputy Farrell.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Would Ms Brady like to come back in on that point?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Is Deputy Farrell happy with those responses?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I thank Deputy Farrell and call Deputy Daly to speak now, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: That completes the first round. Does anybody wish to come in with anything further?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: The Senator is happy enough. No one else wishes to come in on the second round, so that completes the questioning. Is there anything the Department officials wish to add?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Great. I thank Mr. O'Farrell and Mr. Teehan for being present. That concludes our question-and-answer session. I propose we publish the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? It is. On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for coming in. It has been a very valuable input and everybody has enjoyed the benefit of the witnesses' particular perspectives...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: At the outset, I will also declare an interest in that I am a practising barrister in the area of criminal law, so I am a recipient of legal aid. I am a member of the Bar and also a member of the Irish Criminal Bar Association but I have no pecuniary interest in either body. It has already been acknowledged that the withdrawal of services that took place today is a reflection of an...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Is that not already there with criminal legal aid solicitors?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I would just like to address that issue while it is here in front of us, if I may. Is there not a cohort of criminal legal aid solicitors who would fulfil that job?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I raise an issue that I do not think has been addressed because I do not think anybody can address it, that is, how the Legal Aid Board is going to achieve greater efficiency. Reference was made to a written application, for example, by a solicitor in the course of proceedings where he or she feels that counsel is required. I do not understand, for example, why that needs to be written. It...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Okay, thank you. I will refer to what Mr. Donagh said about the issue in head 19 and guarantees for a person before a court. A legal aid certificate covers solicitor only, in essence, and can be added to. Should there be a guarantee for a person who is going forward on indictment that they would get one counsel or if they are going forward on indictment to the Central Criminal Court that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Is it Mr. Donagh's position that as a minimum, there should be a guarantee of counsel for anyone going forward on indictment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: Do these heads undo that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I have a question on what was said about the legal advice before a matter goes to Garda investigation and I am not saying that this would happen. Is there a concern that at a later stage a defence team might construct a narrative that would suggest that that advice had tailored the manner or content of the complaint? We have seen a lot of development in, for example, the disclosure of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Irish Prison Service Bill and of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill: Discussion (3 Oct 2023)

Barry Ward: I have no doubt that is true. Is Ms Counihan worried that somebody couches it in terms two years later at trial that that is what happened?

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