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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: It needs to be asserted here because this is a classic tactic by the Deputy and Sinn Féin. He is creating an inference that I am seeking to prioritise the wealthy in any scheme that I bring in. The reality, however, is that this scheme was brought in to save jobs and it has been successful in doing so. I refer to the assertion I made and stand over - it is my view that if we brought...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I will go into that matter fully in a moment but, before I do so, the Deputy is right in saying that I am not in a position to tell him the total number of taxpayers that paid dividends across this period. I am, however, in a position to tell him the number of employers that returned money to the scheme due to decisions they made or because they were not able to comply with the criteria of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I will have to check whether the Attorney General was involved in that advice. I can check that for the committee and revert to it. The Attorney General is not always the first port of call. Rather, it is the legal unit within my Department or that of any other Department that is seeking legal advice. I will check whether it went beyond that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, the Department and I are in contact with the insurance companies very regularly. As regards communication we have had with them directly on this matter, this has happened through Insurance Ireland. The Minister of State and the Department contacted Insurance Ireland to make clear our concerns on this issue. That happened last year as this issue...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I have not met Insurance Ireland on this matter in recent months.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I believe he has. I am happy to check that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I will not comment on the detail of it. It is fair that I check it first before I revert to the Deputy.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The action we have indicated we will take is the legislation we will be bringing forward in respect of a higher level of transparency on this issue. I was involved in that as senior Minister in the Department and I will be involved in further action but, before I give an indication as to whether further action will happen, it is appropriate, as senior Minister, that I wait to see what will...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: It is because these are the same insurance companies that we want to be providing insurance cover at reasonable prices to businesses.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: Let me go on to answer that question. Earlier, the Deputy asked me what action I took. When I tell him what the action was, he dismisses it as a joke. He had already decided to dismiss it as a joke before I gave him my answer. In regard to what more I am going to do, the Deputy is interested in a headline. If I make a commitment in regard to action, it is action that I have to take. As...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I am glad the Deputy has recognised the risk.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: That is good.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I will answer that question. Of course, I want to be in a position so that, if taxpayers’ money has been used in a way to underpin a payment that has been made, that money is returned to the State. As I said, however, in my view, that can only be done legally in a prospective manner. What I find extraordinary about the outburst from Deputy Doherty is that he referred to my...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The risks are there, no matter what the Deputy is suggesting.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: Let me conclude. This has to go both ways. In the exchange I had earlier, I made the point to the Deputy that a Government deciding that our answer to an issue we are facing is that we are going to tax the employer more brings risks to it. The Deputy acknowledged that to me a moment ago when he said it does. He acknowledged there are risks. If we have large global insurers that we want...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: That is what the Deputy is arguing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: It is consistent. Deputy Doherty is against the data centres and does not seem to acknowledge the point that data centres play a role in employment in our country. He does not have a good word to say about any bank but when two banks leave Ireland, he is the first to criticise that. Then, when we are here on the insurance companies, he wants more insurance at better prices with more...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: Deputy Doherty made reference to my record earlier and said I have no record to stand over. The record I have to stand over is being Minister for Finance at the moment the pandemic hit and at the moment at which our country was dealing with Brexit. Across that period, we have grown and maintained jobs in our country and we have protected the taxpayer.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The Deputy is quite happy to make a general comment.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The record will show what the Deputy did or did not say.

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