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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: If we, therefore, take the contract at the moment-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: -----oil has gone up by 40%. That affects diesel. That is being used on road contracts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Since when?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: What about diesel?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: TII will have an idea of the way contracts have been priced, so if the materials have increased in price across the board in the order of 20% to 25%, are these contracts in a profit- or loss-making situation now, based on the way they were priced on day 1?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: When companies price a contract, they are going to tell TII what their margin is. I have no doubt TII will-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: But TII would have an idea. It would have its own modelling where they give it a contract price. Would all of these fixed-price contracts have been awarded based purely on price, that is, on the lowest price?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is that on the basis of lowest price?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: We are hearing anecdotally that many of these would make up the balance of the price on claims at the end. That is anecdotal; it is what we hear.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: If you have a fixed-price contract that starts today and it is a two-year fixed price then I can put in for inflation in two years' time. Say the contract is for three years, I can only put in for inflation from the start of the end of the three years. Am I correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Explain the 15%.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Will the contractor get the additional payment it claims retrospectively based on the works it has done since the start of the contract?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: This is very important. I have spoken to contractors. At the moment they are getting killed on diesel costs and materials costs. They will have been allocated contracts and they might have to wait. They would be the preferred tender but that cannot be awarded until it has been approved. The devil is in the detail. If they have a fixed-price contract for two years, when they come along...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: From when?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: If they have done works and been paid for works done in the two years, can they claim for that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Then that makes it impossible. What margins would they typically be making on these contracts?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: If contractors are on margins of 1% or 2% and diesel has gone up by between 20% and 25% and materials by at least 20%, with the steel price alone increasing by 40%, they are in severe loss-making situations. From my own observations, what then happens is they are chasing the dragon of cash. They are chasing payments from TII to cover pay, materials, contractors and subbies, in many cases...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: All right. If the fixed-price contract is not reformed could we be looking at a situation where none of them might survive?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Okay but is it fair to say Mr. Walsh would not be coming in here as CEO of TII and putting in writing that he believes that implementation of these measures in a timely and effective way, would do a lot to protect delivery of NDP infrastructure if he were not concerned? If these changes are not made could it have an impact on the delivery of the NDP?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport: Transport Infrastructure Ireland Projects and Related Issues: Discussion (6 Apr 2022)

Kieran O'Donnell: Okay. Mr. Walsh referred to his belief that consideration should be given to the use of internationally recognised civil engineering contract forms such as the new engineering contract, NEC, or the FIDIC form of contract. In layman's terms, what would be the difference between those and the current contract? Would it be fair to say that of the three elements, namely, alignment of...

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