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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: There was no consultation with Mr. Watt on that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: This problem was beginning to grow and emerge as a serious issue. In the context of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, would Mr. Watt not have thought of stating to the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Minister that it would have been a good idea to get an independent assessment in place to report directly back? I am...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: All this had occurred.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: To get to the end of this, it started off with the national children's hospital as a project. The Government wanted to achieve it. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, had a role in respect of advice up to 2014. That is according to Mr. Watt's own note. I am reading from that. At one stage, therefore, the NDFA was involved. The Government, that is the Cabinet, made the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Yes. The HSE ended up deciding to have PwC involved. Mr. Watt's Department has the contracts committee. Advice was given by the OGP directly to the national children's hospital board and the Department had someone on that board. In spite of all that Government involvement, from political aspects to the various structures I have mentioned, it has been possible, collectively, to make a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: No.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: This involves the contract details and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Health and the HSE. How did all those bodies come together and arrive at a situation where not only can we not get a handle on how much this is going to cost us when it is finished, but we cannot even get a handle on the efficiency of the spending or the bad spending that took place.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: No, because that person would be sacked.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: It works like that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: I want to finish on Mr. Watt's two notes. He referred to the role of the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, and that of the chief procurement officer, CPO. Mr. Watt stated that the CPO was satisfied that matters were being addressed by the board and reported through the governance arrangements established by the HSE and the Department of Health. He went on to state that the CPO would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: It is what I take from that. I would like to know what was he reporting to the Minister. He was satisfied that the process was working, which means he was satisfied that the then-chairman was reporting to the Minister.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: How do I find out what he was reporting to the Minister?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Within the Department of Health would there have been records of phone calls or private meetings?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Adding to the list I read to the witness earlier, it states in Mr. Watt's note that the board was established by ministerial order, which is fine, and it was there to plan, design, build, furnish and equip the national hospital in accordance with a brief approved by the HSE with the prior consent of the Minister. The note also mentions the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, which...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: No. If Mr. Watt felt there was something wrong here in the context of how that board performed or officials in his Department, the Department of Health or anybody else involved, or indeed the Minister, would he take action? Would he put the information before this committee, the Committee of Public Accounts or the health committee? Would he do so without covering up anything?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Mr. Watt is engaging with us here and giving us the background. He has served a long time as a senior civil servant, the "most senior civil servant" in the country, to quote today's news.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: Mr. Watt is a strong enough character to put before any committee anything he might see that he believes would have been wrong. That is the question I am asking. I do not disbelieve him but we engage with civil servants.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: That brings our meeting to an end. I thank Mr. Watt.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: He spent all day at this. I also thank his officials. We have ended the meeting without a row.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

John McGuinness: It stands to both of us that we are maturing as we go along in our exchanges.