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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I hate the line "international best practice". Who decides that other countries are the best? It seems disruptive to me.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Does Ms McPhillips believe it is good value for money to move people around every three to four years?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Are we losing value in terms of the learning curve?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Is it correct that the Department was shedding people from 2008 onwards?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Has the Department of Justice and Equality been substantially adding numbers and expertise over the past number of years?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: In light of events of recent years, are there guidelines for personnel on what, for example, should be reported to the Minister or the Secretary General of the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: If I am a principal officer and I have information that could be useful, is a determination given to my role that states that if I come into contact with information about X or Y, the Minister should be apprised?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: It is a given, rather than something that is defined.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I do not think we are getting to the issue here.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I do not want to get into specific cases because Ms McPhillips will not be able to answer anyway. I am interested in what the procedure is for the stage at which a Minister has to be apprised. If the Department has not visited this-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I am thinking about certain events over the years where somebody did not know about this or that. What guidelines are there? I know they may be difficult to verbalise but we need a procedure on it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I know Ms McPhillips does not have that now so it would be brilliant if she could drop us a note on it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Ms McPhillips might include that in her note.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: It is worth putting this anonymous letter out there so that Ms McPhillips can say what is in it is not the case, as it may well not be. It states that many of the new managers coming in are inexperienced or have little previous experience in the Civil Service and that, in fact, the psychometric testing that the Public Appointments Service now conducts for new managers now favours candidates...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I am flagging it because it would be a matter of concern if our psychometric testing encouraged, inadvertently, a culture of containment or people to keep an issue at one's own level.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: It might be Ms McPhillips's experience, but as we have all seen through the media and various exposés, it seems not to be exclusively the practice. When an anonymous letter comes in like that-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Exactly. Ms McPhillips can say it is rubbish if she wants to, and that is fine-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: I am certainly not doing that. I am not damning a whole generation of anybody, but I believe that we have learned by our mistakes in the past by not listening and by choosing to ignore dissenting voices. Albeit this was an anonymous dissenting voice but I am merely putting it out there. If it identifies any anomalies we can address them together, or dismiss them if they are groundless.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: Am I finished or am I okay for time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Marc MacSharry: If it is my last question, I must prioritise. Reference was made to external investigators, internal protected disclosures and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

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