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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2019: Motion (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: No, the underspend is last year's money that has not been spent. I did not see the note about salaries but I assume it involves salaries relating to the projects where the money has not been spent currently so there is work to be done. It is not all just bricks and mortar. A significant part involves relates to salary so that would make up the salaries portion highlighted by the Deputy.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2019: Motion (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: This is the title for the Vote. It is the subhead, which is the capital project itself. It is not salaries.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2019: Motion (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: The overspend is subsequently dealt with in that year depending on what is required so there may be a revised Estimate if the overspend is sufficiently-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2019: Motion (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: No. Revised Estimate would be presented rather than reducing the capital in that subsequent year.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: No, I am happy to move straight on.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: Section 3 places an €8 billion cap on the value of assets and the money that may be held in the fund but allows any return on the fund to be held in the fund. In our current interest rate environment, we can expect a near zero rate return or a small carry cost for holding the fund as near cash as is practicable. However, the fund is unlikely to reach the €8 billion cap for...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: The Deputy is correct that €1.5 billion is to be transferred from ISIF. I do not have a date for when that transfer will be made during the year. That will depend on the legislation being passed and signed by the President, and when that happens. The objective, initially, is to transfer a single tranche of €1.5 billion. There will be subsequent annual transfers of...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That is correct.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That is correct. We think that is appropriate. It will take us to 2023. We hope there will not be any of these exceptional circumstances and the €4 billion will be there in 2023, with the opportunity to grow it further. That is our hope and expectation.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: I will deal with what the Deputy said about one of the circumstances being recapitalisation of the banks. That is not what this pot of money is for. This was stated to the Deputy and his colleagues on Second Stage. It is clear they are not, however, accepting that. The Deputy said that, effectively, the only use for this pot of money is to recapitalise the banks.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That is fine but that is not what it is for. I cannot state that any more frankly than that. We have done much in the past decade. As a nation, we have recapitalised the Irish banks. A core objective of the EU banking union is to separate the sovereign fund from the banks and prevent the use of State funds to bail out banks. The EU banking union provides for a single prudential...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: It is important, Deputy-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: Excuse me, but it is not.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: It is not a simple question. It is important that we move beyond the Deputy's narrative, which is to say that a pot of money is being made available to bail out banks.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That "can be" used. I am not trying to misquote the Deputy. It is important that the rainy day fund be available for a severe economic negative shock. That is why we have it. This is in line with a number of other jurisdictions, albeit theirs are not designed in the exact same way as ours. I am not having a go at the Deputy,-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: -----but it does him a disservice to say that it can be used. It can be used for a number of things depending on what the Oireachtas decides at some point in the future. There is a pot of money that, by the end of 2023, should amount to €4 billion. It will then be a matter for the Oireachtas, if the Houses see fit, to add to that pot of money to a maximum of €8 billion. If...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That is a matter for the Oireachtas to decide.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: That is a matter for the Oireachtas to decide in 2023-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: It can be used for a number of matters. That is for the Oireachtas to decide.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Surplus (Reserve Fund for Exceptional Contingencies) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (28 Mar 2019)

Michael D'Arcy: The Deputy may be on this side of the House then. The choice is for the Oireachtas.

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