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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Okay. I am conscious of time. Part of my reason for asking that particular question was the growing trend of bogus self-employment across the State, as Mr. Hogan's Department can see right across a number of sectors. This committee found evidence that it is happening in media and journalism, with RTÉ being a prime example. Last week, we heard about one third of the staff in...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: The Irish Congress of Trade Unions estimated that it is costing approximately €700 million per year. More research and oversight is probably needed on that. What has the Department actually done in that regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: The PAC published a report around the courier sector around 2021. We sought an independent review, if you like, by an auditor of all that voluntary PRSI system and, in particular, the deal that was agreed between Revenue and the courier sector. That is going back to 2021. We wanted to know how much was lost to the State as a result of that agreement, the number of workers impacted and the...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: It is a serious and increasing issue. What has happened with it since?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: What was the result of that? Was there action?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: What were those actions?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: It is a big enough issue that Mr. Hogan should know if concrete action was decided upon, never mind taken.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Does anybody with Mr. Hogan have it? He has a team with him. Does anybody know?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: No, I am just-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: My point is that there has been nothing concrete. No action has been taken as such. The report published by us flagged up all those issues and Mr. Hogan's Department has not commissioned anything to carry out any investigation into that report.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Yes, but through the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Okay. I want to touch on the Central Bank of Ireland and the instructions it gave to sell non-performing loans, if you like, to vulture funds. That was confirmed to us last April by Governor Makhlouf. I want to know Mr. Hogan's view on that. Was the Department informed at the time? If it had known, would it have stepped in and placed pressure on the banks not to do that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: No, I am talking about the current situation where we are actually facilitating the transfer from, say, pillar or highly regulated retail banks to vulture funds and the stress that would cause mortgage holders given that vulture funds are charging 9% interest rate while a retail bank is charging 4%.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: The point is the Central Bank has very few regulations when it comes to the conduct of vulture funds, if you like. People are, therefore, at the mercy of those vulture funds. To the Central Bank and Department's thinking, does Mr. Carville not feel the Central Bank and the regulator should have a role to protect those mortgage holders?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: For example, why would the Department not ensure the Central Bank was given powers to cap interest rates by vulture funds? Why would that not be given? That would automatically give some sense of security or comfort to those paying more than double what a retail bank pays and left with no choice but to pay it or lose their homes. Why is that never decided upon?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: It would say it has not got the powers.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: From a policy perspective, has the Department ever worked with the Minister to ensure that those powers were given?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: That is a question on policy as to why.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Has the Minister ever spoken to the Department about that issue?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: There are 4,500 offset mortgages in Ulster Bank that will be sold off by the bank. That is another tranche of mortgage holders who could well be at the mercy of vulture funds and all that involves.

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