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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: With respect, Ms McCabe still has not answered my question. A simple “Yes” or “No” will suffice.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Is Ms McCabe suggesting that there should be separate rates of pay for someone serving breakfast in a hotel in the morning?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: They are doing the same job.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Hold on; let us bring that back. Is Ms McCabe seriously telling me that this person is going to serve twice as many sausages as the person who is 17?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: No, I am making an argument about equity.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: If people do the same work, they should get paid the same pay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: No, not at all.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Well, they are not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: We are talking about the lowest paid workers in the State.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Mr. McDonnell told us this is going to present a crisis in youth unemployment, which is nonsense.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: It seems to me that Mr. McDonnell is making an argument against having a minimum wage here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: I want to talk to our colleagues in Mandate first because it was an interesting point that Deputy Barry made. It is probably worth expanding on it a little. Is Mandate saying that there are well-known retail chains - very profitable companies - currently utilising sub-minimum rates of pay on a daily basis?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: How can they possibly justify that given their levels of profitability?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: To direct the question in a different way to our colleagues from ISME, is it not grossly unfair on its members who pay the full minimum wage to have them competing against people paying sub-minimum rates of pay? As Mr. McDonnell has acknowledged, the majority of ISME's members do not pay sub-minimum rates of pay. That is what the evidence from the ESRI tells us. Is it not grossly unfair...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Mr. McDonnell has other points to make in terms of broader issues. I do not think we would agree on them but it is probably worth having that conversation at some point, in fairness. I was intrigued by the enthusiasm for collective bargaining in an earlier reference Mr. McDonnell made. What percentage of ISME members recognise trade unions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Is Mr. McDonnell saying he does not know what percentage of his membership recognise trade unions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: It is a glaring contradiction. ISME says it wants to take part in collective bargaining at State level but it cannot tell us what percentage of its membership recognises trade unions. I will put it out there that I would say it is a fairly round figure.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: Maybe ISME should start at local level. I will let my colleague from Mandate come in.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: So ISME wants to take part in collective bargaining but its members actively engage in union-busting.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: Sub-Minimum Rates of the National Mininimum Wage: Discussion (10 Jul 2024)

Paul Gavan: What term would you use?

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