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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: We could continue to work on that for sure. I ask for a brief answer to this. When the Department looks for sites for schools, is it still of the opinion that the site should encompass a playing pitch? It appears to me the policy in recent years has been tarmac courts. What is combined with the site? What is the requirement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: It is not pre-ordained. It can be adjusted to suit the requirements.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I am sorry. I am looking at the clock and I have a very important question to ask regarding Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS. I ask Mr. O'Leary who I might be guided towards as regards DEIS status.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I will ask Ms Mannion on what basis postcodes deliver DEIS schools. Why are they a requirement now?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I assume if someone is homeless, he or she does not have a postcode.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: It is a very simple question. If the Department is now using postcodes to identify whether a school should be given DEIS status, how does that identify whether the resident in a postcode owns the property, is a housing assistance payment, HAP, tenant, or in receipt of social welfare? In those cases, the Department's algorithm is not working because I know of a number of schools where DEIS...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Does Ms Mannion appreciate that the schools, and the principals within those schools, are best placed to predetermine whether they require DEIS status? We are pitting children against children here. Asking a school to provide a postcode as a methodology to determine disadvantaged status is outrageous. I am not saying it is the witnesses' fault but they can surely agree that it is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: It is not transparent. Can Ms Mannion determine from a postcode whether the tenant or household is in receipt of social welfare? If she can, it is a breach of GDPR too.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Is it not correct that the Department is only given the postcode?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: This is really serious.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I will come back in. Rather than the answer, I would like to point out that there is a school in a certain part of Wexford - I will not announce where - which did not want DEIS status but received it because it did what it was obliged to do with regard to the DEIS status allocation. It filled out the forms. It received DEIS status but does not want it, although it is not giving the status...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: We would need two days.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: For the benefit of the committee, I understand how it is allocated. I am telling Ms Mannion that it does not work. It is not correct. We need to look at the system because it does not allocate DEIS status to where it is required.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Does Ms Mannion have figures for the number of appeals?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Can the committee get a breakdown of that information in writing?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I wish to just follow up. I was hoping to have a bit longer than that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Grand. Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: Yes, if anyone else turns up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I just request a breakdown again, on foot on what Deputy Carthy asked for earlier in relation to SNAs and the allocation in the budget. I have looked at the website and I find that we have to do the calculations ourselves. It gives a breakdown county by county. However, for the benefit of the committee, how many SNAs out of the extra 1,165 allocated in the budget have been given roles? ...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 26 - Education
2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 7 - Purchase of Sites for School Provision
2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate
(7 Jul 2022)

Verona Murphy: I know that.

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