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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I understand an audit of this process is outside the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but who audits it?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: What level of access does the Comptroller and Auditor General have to that audit?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: That is quite astonishing. Deputy McDonald's comments on the report are key and we should emphasise them.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I saw that. However, the anomaly is significant, particularly in light of the losses incurred. Is it the case there were very significant losses from the investments? How was this benchmarked?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: Who are the certified auditors on this?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I compliment the Chairman on his work on this.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I am delighted to have the opportunity to raise a few important issues affecting the survival of small and microbusinesses. With regard to the €9 billion market share to which Ms Fleming referred, what is the total market in Ireland in cash terms?

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I want to deal with the school market. I understand the figure is 28%. I would prefer to deal with the issue before us today, namely, the schools supply end. What is the total market for that area?

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I will explain from where we are coming. I refer to circular 10/14. Ms Fleming indicated that schools would be the only customer.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I want to get some balance. Would suppliers be doing other normal distribution?

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: We are dealing with conglomerates, unfortunately, in Ireland, not alone in Government agencies. Those of us in the business world know very clearly about both wholesale and retail. It is very much a conglomerate backdrop.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: That letter was issued from the Department to state that the principal of a school could be deemed to be the Accounting Officer for the school. Once that letter was issued, regardless of quality, quantity and value, the school was not obliged to deal with a centralised customer billing system. What has happened since then?

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: The position of the Accounting Officer was clarified by the procurement officer, Mr. Quinn, that if the principal of a school could certify that the school was getting value for money across the whole range, then it would not be prevented from dealing with the local supplier. Does this situation still pertain?

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: It is very important to take the benchmark that is accepted by the Office of Government Procurement that the principal of a school as the Accounting Officer can still deal with a supplier and the school does not have to go through centralised billing.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: We are attempting to resolve this issue. We are talking about the definition of micro and small business. National procurement is a bigger issue but we are dealing here with the supplies to schools. I refer to Circular 10/14 which deals with the breaking down of that contract. Has direct contact been made from the small firms? I presume there is a database of school suppliers. Schools...

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I ask Ms Fleming to explain the systems used in Wales and Scotland.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I ask the chairman his opinion on the anti-competitiveness aspect.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: I have a final question about the national procurement office which is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I refer to the question of value for money, quality and business methods. What might the Office of Government Procurement do to enhance the opportunity for SMEs to compete? One must take into account economies of scale and so on. We are increasingly seeing a centralisation...

Public Accounts Committee: Procurement Issues: Small Firms Association and Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation (5 Mar 2015)

John Perry: Ms Callan referred to local enterprise offices, whose mandate is small business and micro-enterprise. Has there been any link-up by those offices with small firms, principals of schools and so on? A seminar I am dealing with is all about local business-building, which is important.

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