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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: That accords with the sense that other avenues are closed to them and, in that context, that they should have access to this scheme. Mr. Tyndall dwelt on the issue of documentary evidence, in particular, the weight placed on the records of the congregations in assessing some claims and the fact that there was very little by way of interviews with applicants and so on. How much weight...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Mr. Tyndall may not be able to answer my next question, which is quite general. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan asked a specific question on the issue of memorialisation. Can Mr. Tyndall comment on that issue, even in a general sense, or is it outside his scope?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: My final questions relate to correspondence sent to the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and circulated to several Deputies by Justice for Magdalenes, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and several other organisations. Mr. Tyndall's recommendations strongly emphasised the need to write to all women affected to inform them of developments in the case, the report and, in particular, the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: That correspondence quotes the recommendations of Mr. Justice Quirke on pensions, namely, that Magdalen survivors be put in the position that they would have occupied if they had acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the State contributory pension. On that basis, does Mr. Tyndall agree that the pension payments to which such survivors would be entitled should be backdated to retirement...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: On such schemes generally, it is somewhat difficult to develop fully comprehensive lists of relevant institutions, particularly in respect of events that occurred a significant period of time ago. Would it be preferable, in considering people's eligibility criteria or qualification for a scheme, to base it on harm inflicted rather than a prescribed list of institutions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: As I have to leave at around 12 20 p.m., I may not get to hear the replies to my questions. If the Ombudsman has comments to make, I will follow them up in the Official Report afterwards. Is it the Department's intention to write to all of the people who might be able to claim if the Ombudsman issues recommendations that the scheme be changed?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Would they include people whose duration of stay was in dispute?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I asked about Ombudsman pension payments. Mr. Justice Quirke said Magdalen laundry survivors should be put in the position they would have occupied had they acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the contributory State pension. Does Mr. Martin believe it should include a backdating of pension payments to retirement age, rather than simply to the beginning of the administration of the scheme?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: That is not what Mr. Justice Quirke recommended.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Mr. Martin said his understanding was that there was an acceptance that the State was legally, as well as morally, liable for the wrongs associated with residential institutions. He also said the 2002 Act allowed a person to pursue a claim. Is there an acceptance that the State is liable in the same way for these wrongs?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I am aware of that. I am asking if there is an acceptance that the State is similarly liable.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Therefore, there is no acceptance that the State is legally liable for the Magdalenes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: It is my view that the State is morally liable.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Deputy Clare Daly made a good point about Chinese walls and abstract distinctions. The Department may hide behind the Minister on the basis that the Minister ultimately calls the shots, but my concern is that the Minister will do the same, with less justification or rationale. Mr. Martin said the Department did not have the discretion or authority to include An GrianĂ¡n and similar...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Clearly, with reference to Cork, there was a labour element considered.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: In relation to the redress scheme for the industrial schools, was labour a consideration?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Although I could be mistaken, I am certainly not aware of anything following on from the Ryan commission or the residential institutions redress scheme that made labour, including forced labour, a significant consideration. I suggest, although I may be mistaken, that part of the reason the Ombudsman felt there was no requirement to revisit the Magdalen laundry scheme or anything like it was...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Mr. Martin has stated the Government's position was that residents of the industrial institutions would not be eligible because they were not residents of the Magdalen institutions. Given that the avenue of their claims was forced labour, on what basis was it discounted?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: When Mr. Martin states it specifically excluded those who had been in the residential institutions and related specifically to those who had been in Magdalen institutions, what does being in a Magdalen institution specifically require? I want to clarify this aspect. Was it strictly required that they had to have been resident in all circumstances?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I am not talking about excluding because of being resident in other places.

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