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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I am not trying to be rude but I have very little time. The Housing Agency may go back to a local authority with a cost-benefit analysis but, if it does not have the option to buy, it is not really looking at that option.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: It is a case of take it or leave it.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Does the Housing Agency intend to do any comprehensive work in respect of this matter or is that the responsibility of the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Has the Department conducted an analysis? I am aware that there is an intention to carry out such an analysis. We have been told that the scheme going to be phased out. When I started raising this matter with the Taoiseach in the Dáil a couple of years ago - I thought he was taken aback by what the scheme involved - I was told that it was going to be phased out. I was also told that...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: We need the Department to come back to us on this.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: To be perfectly honest, in ten years' time people will ask who was mad enough to sign off on this scheme in the context of analysing the viability of the housing stock in the longer term. The Department is not going to have stock at the end of this. I ask that the officials come back with a comprehensive report. Answers are also required in respect of a number of questions. How many...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: In terms of Kildare, after I was told that the scheme was going to be phased out, there was an increase. That was my experience. I have no way of knowing the position for certain, and that is why I want the Department to supply the information I have requested.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: On the 450 AHBs, obviously there are different tiers. My experience with the larger ones is that they are professionally managed, whereas the smaller ones are usually run by volunteers and can be vastly different. That is where I have seen difficulties with getting insurance and not being in compliance with things and causing all sorts of problems. Some of those issues have been resolved....

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Does that continue to be paid after the 25 years, once the loan is discharged?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Some of these organisations will have built up assets. What happens to those assets? Once they do not have a loan they will get rents. They may well have people, if they have a differential rent for example, who are paying the maximum of that and if they have been using that maintenance grant wisely the housing stock will be in good condition so they may well not have to reinvest it in...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Do the RAS arrangements have to comply with someone having a differential rent, or is it market rents that the RAS is matched against? What is the arrangement there?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: That would make a very sizeable difference in terms of building up assets. It would mean the State would, if it is market rent-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Do the eight concerns that have been raised relate to the smaller tiers or the larger tiers, that is, the tier 3 housing bodies? Is that known?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Does the authority have a remit to do research into how these bodies have functioned, or malfunctioned? Is it required to wait until an issue is raised with it?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: It is clear we need to get some information so we can see how that works out once the loan is discharged and all the other issues in relation to the allocations policy. That would be quite a critical issue to make sure you do not end up with someone who can pay a market rent. That was my experience with some of the smaller AHBs. They wanted to get allocations made to people who could pay...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I would have been involved in that scheme at the initial stages because Fingal, Meath, and to a much lesser extent, Kildare, would have had involvement in that. It is ongoing. People have a perception that once these schemes are put in place it will be immediate. However, it rolls out over a long period. Approximately 10,000 dwellings were initially assessed as possible. The estimate is...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I thank Mr. Jordan.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: This was a capital assistance scheme. How many of the units currently with AHBs were funded through the capital assistance scheme, and has there been any change over the years that would make a difference when the houses that have been funded to date become, as we call it, "unencumbered"? It sounds like a 19th century land war kind of terminology. Is there a difference? Can anybody answer...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Could Mr. Harrington also tell us if there has been a change where the State will have a greater involvement after the point at which they become unencumbered? The other matter falls under the remit of the Charities Regulator because this involves companies that are governed by charity legislation. Is it the case that if they were to change their constitution, they would cease to be charities?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(19 Jan 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Who would be the beneficial owners then?

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