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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The salary that was agreed on was a salary for the post. In filling the post, the decision was made to hold an open competition. When there is an open competition, the Minister no longer has control of the outcome. He or she must trust, quite rightly in my view, the integrity, competence and professionalism of the people involved in the selection process. We are fortunate to have really...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: No, there was no requirement to sign off on that because a public service pay deal, Building Momentum, applies across the board. It applied last year and again applies this year. As part of that, there are three separate 1% pay increases, in October of last year and February and October of this year. The February increase, which has just occurred, is slightly different for some public...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The public service pay deal provides for an increase of approximately 3% over a two-year period to the end of the current year. Two of those increases have been implemented. For all public servants, including civil servants, the third leg will come into play on 1 October of this year.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Under the current pay deal, which applies to every public and civil servant who is party to the pay deal, as the overwhelming majority are, there will be a further increase of 1% on 1 October. That will apply to the Deputy and his colleagues and to civil servants across the board.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The way the negotiation of public service pay deals works is that there is a collective negotiation between the employer side and representatives of the employees. The employees are represented by the unions, which are affiliated to ICTU. What is negotiated is a collective agreement that applies to everyone who comes under it across the public service and the Civil Service. What is not...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The point I was making was I do not have a legal right to accessing that information. The Deputy is correct in stating the money I give back every year, and that which the Deputy and others give back, comes into the central Exchequer and is used accordingly for all the purposes for which we spend public money. My point was that the mechanism for waiving the money, or actually gifting it...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: It goes back into the central Exchequer through the Minister for Finance. I do not get a report on it. It is not the case that I am sitting on information that I am not prepared to give to the Deputy. I do not have that information and I do not get it, nor do I think I would be entitled to it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I think it is entirely a matter for himself. I do not want to get into the space of calling on someone to do anything. I am a Minister and I have legal responsibilities in regard to the functions I have to discharge in the Department. I always believe in being as open and transparent as possible. I, as a Minister, and senior civil servants are accountable. We are accountable to relevant...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I think it is important to make the point that there is no increase in salary relative to what the previous incumbent was on. The salary for that particular post has not been increased. We went through a process with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and NewERA on this. Because it is a commercial State body, my own role as Minister in this regard is to give consent or...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: No, it would have been compiled by NewERA, which advises the Government on its relationship with commercial State bodies.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: It provides independent advice to the Government on that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine would have made a request or a recommendation that would have come to me. My officials would then have got involved in seeking a significant amount of additional information and would have sought the advice of NewERA, including a business case. Ultimately, it would have come to us then with a recommendation on the salary level that was...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I will examine that for the Deputy, but there may well be some issues of commercial sensitivity. It is not a document that I own, but I will make inquiries on that. I would be happy to come back to the committee in writing on that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I ask the Deputy to bear with me. I am not sure I have the specific figure for the unit to hand. I will look through the briefing pack, but I am not sure it goes into that level of detail. If I do not have it, I will certainly come back to the Deputy. I do not think I have it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Just by way of background, as the Deputy is aware, we are doing a major review of the FOI legislation. We have already held one round of public consultation and we had more than 1,200 submissions, so there is a huge amount of interest in it. In the coming months I hope to bring proposals to the Government for legislation to reform, modernise and update our freedom of information system....

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: We have agreed as a Government to bring forward a timed amendment to the legislation, for the reason that it raises a number of issues but, to be frank, the Bill needs to be entirely redrafted. It proposes to publish the names of certain individual recipients of pensions, but the way it is drafted copper-fastens the existing position. I do not believe we should vote against the Bill, as I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I examine each Bill on its own merits. In the weeks ahead, for example, I will be going through a detailed legislative process with Deputy Farrell and others on the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Bill 2021. I am open to amending that Bill. I am open to accepting Opposition amendments. I am not precious about these things at all. I am very pragmatic. If I believe a Bill moves things...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I do not believe it is legal for anyone to destroy records that are the subject of an FOI request. I am aware of one of the provisions in the Private Members' Bill to which the Deputy refers that provides for a referral to SIPO. One of the issues that arose when we examined that was it was not clear what SIPO would do with that or what powers it currently has. That issue could not just be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Every Department has its own data management policy that sets out the requirements relating to the management and keeping of records. Those policies are in place and publicly available. Everyone obviously must be compliant with them insofar as they can.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: That is one of the issues we will have to examine as part of the review. It is absolutely wrong. It is the subject of sanction whereby anybody in possession of documents or information that needs to be retained for FOI purposes must retain that. If a person wilfully and deliberately destroys documents to avoid disclosure by way of FOI, that is the subject of sanction. We will provide...

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