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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I will give the Deputy a simple answer. There is no benchmarking process under way.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I have already said to the Deputy that people will always make the case for a pay increase. They will always point to other people and ask why they earn that while they earn this. I have also given the Deputy a very clear statement that no one has made the case to me on this particular post.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Nobody has. If anybody did and sought a pay increase on the basis of perceived relativity with that particular post it is not something I would sanction. It is a matter for future Ministers as to what they might decide to do.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: There is a system of accountability in place. It is a matter for each Minister working with the Secretary General of the Department to agree the strategy and business plan for the Department for the year ahead and then, on an ongoing basis, to monitor performance and discuss the achievement of the milestones set out. This is certainly the basis on which I operate and run my Department. It...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: It is not necessarily fair to conflate directly those issues. What happened in Kerry with the provision of services was an appalling failure that should never have happened. The leadership of the Department of Health and the leadership of the HSE have a deadly serious job of work to do now to fix that and to support those families in any way they can. However, linking that to a reduction...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: As I said, it is a matter for the line Minister to come to a view on the performance of his or her Secretary General. It is not for me to judge the performance of another Secretary General in his or her day-to-day work.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: That question was the subject of the committee's work and was answered in the course of that work and a very lengthy report that has issued. If the Deputy wants me to go over the history of the matter, I am happy to give him a summary.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: As somebody who, I believe, was involved in the compilation of the report, the Deputy will be familiar with the background to this and the fact that in, I believe, late October 2020 there was a meeting in Government Buildings. The Minister for Health convened the meeting and explained to those present, including me, the Taoiseach and the Secretary General to the Government, that there was a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I have answered it but-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I am happy to answer every one of the Deputy's questions but I ask to be given time to do so. There is no point in just firing questions at me and not allowing me the scope to answer them. There was a very open and frank discussion at the meeting to which I referred a moment ago. I believe the minutes of that meeting were provided to the committee and have been published. A number of...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I agree about the centrality of the role of the Department of Health, not just during a global pandemic. Of course, there will be an aftermath, a legacy and consequences of the pandemic. Unfortunately, the immediate consequence is increased waiting lists. The person sitting at the top of the Department of Health, working with the HSE, will be instrumental in meeting the Government policy...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I do not have the contract with me, but I imagine, in the absence of a renegotiation of a contract, that that is very unlikely. As I said, I do not have the contract here. I cannot give the Deputy a definitive answer to that question, but a provision in a contract providing for a downward revision for a Civil Service appointment I would regard as unlikely. However, I would have to check that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: It is open to the Government to remove a Secretary General. The Government can do that but that step is not taken lightly. There is-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: An accountability framework is in place. The responsibilities of the Secretary General are clear under the legislation. It is about day-to-day management of responsibility, while the Minister has overall policy responsibility and makes decisions in respect of policy. The relevant Minister in each Department must ensure that there is adequate performance measurement. I have such a process...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I will, of course, comment. As always, I greatly appreciate the honesty and frankness of the Chairman. He has made his views known on the issue quite consistently in recent times. However, as a Minister answering questions such as those being put to me, I have to set out the legal position and I cannot go beyond that. The truth is that when it comes to the gifting of a salary, it is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. In general, over the course of the Estimates process, we agree a budget for a particular Vote or area for the following year. That involves detailed negotiation, initially at official level, going through all the various subheads and looking at the needs of that particular body or Department. It is then negotiated at ministerial level and adopted as part of the budget,...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Will the Deputy explain what he means?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: We have, as the Deputy knows, across the system of Secretaries General a number of tiers at present. We have four tiers or levels of Secretaries General. It is an issue I will examine in drawing up the terms of reference for the independent review panel. There is merit in looking at the respective tiers. We have had significant transfer of functions in recent years. We need to have a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I think the Deputy is very familiar with the report and with the process and the steps involved. If he wants me to take him through it-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: In essence, yes. When a post is advertised in open competition, we never know who will apply. For a position of that importance for the State, we certainly want the best people in the world to apply. Having a revised salary was certainly an attraction for people to apply. A number of international candidates applied to the process and, ultimately, the members of the Top-Level Appointments...

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