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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. Her latter point is very much a matter for An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice, in relation to any complaints that were made. I am not privy to the details of those or to the identity of any individuals who were involved. There are established procedures available for all of those issues to be considered and adjudicated upon, so that is not a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: -----because in many respects, this was not the change that was envisaged. We are talking about people who have, in many cases, families, mortgages and so on. We are continuing to consider that issue and what options there may be for them. At the moment it is a very small number of individuals, namely, a handful of people who were previously working for three Ministers up to the end of...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The salary that was sanctioned in December 2020 was for the post of Secretary General in the Department of Health. As the Deputy knows, there then followed an open competitive process which was administered by the Top-Level Appointments Committee and the Public Appointments Service. There were a significant number of applicants, including a number of international candidates who put...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: That is correct. At the moment we are talking about five individuals. I am very conscious of the impact of this issue on them because it is such a small number of people. As I said, this is an exceptional circumstance in that this is a change that was not anticipated. Certainly, as a Minister who was directly impacted by the outcome of that security review it is not something I was...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. We have kept the European Commission informed of the progress of this Bill right the way through. As she knows, we sent the general scheme and heads of Bill to the committee and it conducted pre-legislative scrutiny. That took longer than I would have liked. I think it took about seven months. The transposition deadline for that Bill was in mid-December, so we have...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Chairman. I am happy to do that and respond in writing to the report. While we are still considering some aspects of it I have come to a view as to what needs to be done in respect of the main recommendations. I am happy to commit to writing to the committee with my response, including a response to each of the recommendations made. What I am confirming today is a significant...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: As TLAC's role is, as the Chairman knows, in filling vacancies at assistant secretary general and Secretary General level in Government Departments, so it certainly will be part of this review. It will be the subject of this review with respect to its composition, role and the processes there. On the PAS, it provides a service across the public service and if certain bodies are seeking to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: -----when it comes to the role of filling those top-level positions in the public service, that is going to be the subject of this review. There is also the critical issue of pay that I touched on there. I will consider the committee's recommendation on the review body but I do not want to go straight to that because there are issues we must weigh up.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The Minister has overall responsibility for the Department. Under the Public Service Management Act 1997, the division of responsibilities is clear. The Secretary General has responsibility for the day-to-day management of the Department but, essentially, takes policy direction from the Minister. The Minister sits at the top of the Department in the sense of setting policy. The Secretary...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I am not going to get into the business of advising other Ministers publicly as to what they should or should not do. I have always been of the view, however, that co-operating with the work of Oireachtas committees is important. It is very important for Ministers and it is equally important for civil servants. We have to be held accountable, for good or ill, for the decisions we make and...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: This is a very important office. The State Laboratory is under the aegis of my Department. It is our principal analytical chemistry laboratory and provides a comprehensive analytical and advisory service to the Government, Departments and offices. Its main clients include the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Revenue, the Coroner Service and the Office of the State...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Looking at the outputs from the State Laboratory, we have seen quite a significant increase in activity. Last year, the laboratory significantly exceeded its output target and issued 4,633 statements to assist the work of the courts, including coroners. The target was 4,000. That was due to the large increase in coroners' cases. It also provided expert scientific advice in 455 instances...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I do not have that information to hand but we will take a note and write to the committee with the information.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: What we really want to see is a culture of innovation as innovation does not belong to any single Department. It is not the preserve of any one Minister and it should be right across government and the public service. The first point to make is we want to see ongoing reforms and new initiatives coming through all the time. We co-ordinate this to an extent in my Department. For example,...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. I will first comment on his earlier remarks and acknowledge that so many people across the country are really feeling the pressure of the inflation cycle we are currently experiencing. It is higher than was envisaged and it is likely to remain higher for longer than anticipated. In the budget last October, the forecast of the Department of Finance was that inflation...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: The Deputy needs to be very careful about saying this is a personal deal of some kind. This was a decision made on the salary for a post. That post is the Secretary General of the Department of Health. That decision was made. The post went to an open public competition advertised in Ireland and internationally. The selection of the successful candidate was recommended by the Top Level...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Let me finish and make the point. The Deputy made an accusation that this was a personal deal. In my view he is impugning the good name and character of all of the people involved in the selection process. I do not believe this is fair or accurate.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: Of course. I am sure the Chair will give the Deputy loads of time to respond. When it comes to the question of the case being made by others that this is the benchmark or anchor for future public pay policy, people make cases all the time for pay increases. Pay claims come in constantly. I ask the Deputy to point to an example where the salary associated with this post has led to wage...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Michael McGrath: At present we have Secretaries General working across government in a number of these tiers. I will not ask an independent review panel to examine figures and make recommendations to me on pay levels. This is not what this is about; what it is about is examining the process. It can make recommendations. The Deputy and his colleagues have already made a recommendation that we would set up...

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