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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: It is for a two-bed suburban apartment in the likes of County Wexford.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: What would Mr. Doyle think that it costs to build a two-bed house?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: We will say that this is pertinent to Wexford.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: What would Mr. Doyle say that would cost?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: How much less?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Give us a ball-park figure.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Mr. Doyle is the Secretary General. He must have a figure off the top of his head.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Let me give it to Mr. Doyle. It is €140,000. That is €100,000 less. That is at the top end. It is €140,000 for a two-bed house versus €240,000 for a two-bed apartment. What is the issue there?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Well, I have read it-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: -----and I can assure Mr. Doyle that this is the figure.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: So what problem does that throw up to us? Some 28% of SHDs will never be built, according to the newspapers this morning.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Viability. There you go.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Viability is the serious issue. Would Mr. Doyle agree that our planning policy and everybody from the regulator does not consider viability when it comes to planning policy?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Would Mr. Doyle agree with that statement? It has been repeated a number of times by people, such as the planning regulator, that viability is not a planning consideration.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: The question is whether Mr. Doyle agrees that viability is not in our planning policy and that it is not regarded at all.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Mr. Doyle mentioned density. Our planning policy is for high density, which means that the typologies we get from our planning policy are for apartments or terraced housing. We do not get three-bed semis and we do not get two-bed housing with front and back gardens, which is what people want. Instead, we are spending the taxpayers' money on what they do not want. However, because the...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: That is a binary question. It is "Yes" or "No". Does Mr. Doyle call that value for money? It is a binary question.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: It is. It requires a "Yes" or "No" answer. Is it value for money to waste €1 billion of the taxpayers' money when we know that viability is the issue? We just cannot meet targets and we never will because the policy is not changing.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: Hold on a second. We do not have the transport infrastructure anywhere, except in Dublin, to cater for apartment building and living. Would Mr. Doyle agree with that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Local Government Fund Account 2021
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funds
Chapter 6: Central Government Funding of Local Authorities
Chapter 7: The Housing Agency’s Revolving Acquisition Fund
(26 Jan 2023)

Verona Murphy: It is. It is therefore not appropriate that our planning policy would dictate the same high density for towns in Wexford and Waterford. Urban high densities do not suit the rest of country. Do they? Is that not why we are not meeting our targets? Is that not why our building and planning permissions are not commencing? They are just not viable. Mr. Doyle was telling Deputy Carthy there...

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