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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: The Department is not dismissing or ignoring an opinion in this case, it is dismissing or ignoring a ruling.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Is Mr. McKeon saying that a ruling by the Data Protection Commission, a statutory agency, is irrelevant unless an enforcement notice is issued?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I am not saying that it cannot be challenged. It was a ruling by an independent agency and the Department is acting as if it is dismissing or ignoring an opinion.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: The Department is not complying with it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Usually, if one is not complying with something, one is in breach of the law.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: No, it is not unusual to challenge them. However, it is generally accepted that Government bodies and Departments adhere to the rulings of statutory agencies. That is why this hit the headlines - the Department completely ignored and dismissed the ruling. It begs the question; does the Department recognise that the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner has powers akin to those of a court?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: The Commissioner's findings have a special status.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: The Department dismissed her findings. That is my point.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Of course it has. That was the very first question I asked Mr. McKeon. The Data Commissioner had asked the Department to delete illegally retained data as of 5 September. I asked Mr. McKeon if the Department had done that and he said no.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Although the Data Protection Commissioner has powers akin to a court, the Department is ignoring them.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Does Mr. McKeon think that the actions of the Government and the Department are undermining the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner? Many people would be of that opinion.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I refer to the Department's business case. In Mr. McKeon's statement he said a single business case document would have been preferable. At a hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts just last September the Comptroller and Auditor General said that would be a fundamental requirement for something of this scale and nature. In the document with which we have been furnished, Mr. McKeon has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Would Mr. McKeon consider it a serious omission?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Would Mr. McKeon agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General's assertion that it is a fundamental requirement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I am not talking about that period. I am talking about the past three, four or five years.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I refer to the latter part of the programme; the public services card and the concerns the Data Protection Commissioner has flagged. The Department did not draw up a thorough business case. Mr. McKeon has said it was not a requirement back in the day, but the Department would have been aware that it was a fundamental requirement to justify anything of this scale and type, as the Comptroller...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: They were not in place though. That is the point; two were not in place and five were only partially covered.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I think Mr. McKeon agrees that not doing it thoroughly was a serious omission.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: No one is questioning their professionalism. I am saying that the lack of a business case was a serious omission. Two elements were not even looked at and five others were just partially covered. There was a certain amount of carelessness for a project of this scale and type.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: This is standard practice. People would expect this sort of thing to be adhered to in a thorough manner for a project of this scale and nature. Not doing that was a serious omission.

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