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Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Breslin to send us a note on it. I know it applies to all of them. I believe that because the 2008 contract was not being implemented and court cases were being taken, not all consultants who were involved signed up to the court cases. Where do they stand in this settlement?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: I submitted it as a result of this.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: I am talking that through because I think a number of consultants in that case will be coming onto the new pay rates under the 2008 contracts. Given that they are pre-2008 consultants, they are some of the most experienced consultants in some of the hospitals. They took the view that the 2008 agreement was not being honoured and so they did not sign up to it. Now that it is being honoured,...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: Does Mr. Breslin get the point I am making?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: That was the essence of my parliamentary question.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: Some of the more experience consultants, who did not sign up to this, have the pay rates for signing on to the 2008 agreement now at this stage, and they feel they are going to be disadvantaged.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: I am talking about the fairness of it.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: They are not looking to gain an exorbitant salary, but they feel they are much more experienced than those who came after them, who did sign up and are now on a much higher salary with less responsibility.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: Can the witnesses send the committee a note on the details of the contract? They may know it off by heart, but for the people here who are not from the HSE or the Department of Health, it is hard to keep up with it all. I ask him to send us an information note on it. There are pre-2008 contracts as well, which are working their way out of the system, but give I ask for an explanatory note...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: There is a table in the report but it is hard to follow.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: That court case came up in May and was running for quite a few years. I do not have a copy of the directive the Minister issued, so I ask the witnesses to send one. We know the outcome of the directive, though I do not know its format. When was the last new directive like this issued, prior to this? There have been directives about pensions and State claims which are ongoing, but when was...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask the witnesses to send the committee more information on the previous directive so we can better understand this one. It is the law and the health Acts allow this, but the Comptroller and Auditor General would not have highlighted if he did not feel it merited highlighting. Changing the deficit from the year from €283 million down to €86 million is a very substantial...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: The accounts show the charge to the statement of revenue and income and expenditure was €318.7 million in 2018. That is what was booked out, but what was the value of the claims received during the course of the year? I am worried because it is escalating year-on-year, and that is why we are looking at it. Do the witnesses know the value of the claims that came in, that brought the...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: We will have to have that for next week.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: We will need that before next week. In other words, the HSE had a figure at the beginning of the year from the previous year's accounts, €318 million was paid out or settled. I do not know the value datum recorded on that, but it is gone out of the system, and new figures have come in giving a total of €2.79 billion, a figure is missing there.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is the State Claims Agency's job to explain that to us next week, but we also need the HSE's input at that meeting so we can knit the information together. It re-emphasises the problem, if the State Claims Agency is here and the HSE is not.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: The Committee of Public Accounts has two interests here. I say as much so that the HSE officials know where we are coming from. One is the cost of what is in front of us, but the real reason we are looking at it is to minimise risk in future. It is about learning about and minimising risk and risk control. We need both.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: There is no point in looking at the figures if we are not going to learn anything.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: Next week we will want to see the number of claims that came in during 2018 as against 2017 and 2016. I hope that will prove the point you are making, Mr. Mulvany. The Committee of Public Accounts cannot make a judgment without seeing the information. I think you are getting a feel for where we are coming at for next week. It could be useful work on the part of the Committee of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Seán Fleming: The figure is €340 million.

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