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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I would appreciate that as the public gets confused as to the difference between the two. We will suspend and, when we return, we will still be dealing with the NTMA but, specifically, the State Claims Agency.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: We are continuing our consideration of the NTMA financial statements for 2018. In this session, we are dealing specifically with the State Claims Agency, which is part of the overall NTMA. I welcome the new witnesses, who are Mr. Greg Dempsey, deputy Secretary General, governance and performance, in the Department of Health; from the HSE Mr. Patrick Lynch, national director, quality...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Please explain the discount rate. Mr. Breen said that it was paid at a higher rate and the settlement was at a lower rate, so people will think that means the amount payable went down. Please explain that for the people watching.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Some people will still not get that. The problem is this is counter-intuitive. The people watching will hear that a lower rate is more expensive and will not get that. Please explain it again for the people watching.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: On the lower, what Mr. McCarthy called the discount-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Let us say €1 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Only 1%.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Okay. The Comptroller and Auditor General has helped to explain this from the public's point of view. The discount rate is something that you manage and it is what you are going to earn. People when they hear about the discount rate think it is the interest rate. That may sound strange. For the public watching, the State Claims Agency is looking at this from its point of view and using...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The State Claims Agency has to provide more-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: -----but it does not affect the people on the other-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Can that change in the future?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: At this stage Deputies Connolly, Catherine Murphy, MacSharry and O'Connell have indicated. This debate is a continuation of a topic that we discussed here last year. We did not to complete it because there was so much information being sought from the HSE on the number and category of claims. We sought information for the public watching by hospital in an effort to see whether hospitals...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will ask a few short questions before the Deputies contribute. Mr. Lynch might not know this off the top of his head but perhaps he could send us a report on the number of category 1 incidents. While the numbers involved are small, these are the most catastrophic cases which result in major claims down the road. Mr. Lynch described the increase in reported incidents as a good thing and a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will make one further comment before handing over to Deputy Connolly. Mr. Lynch mentioned the clinical risk forum. The former chief executive of the HSE, Mr. Tony O'Brien, was before this committee 14 months ago, shortly after the Vicky Phelan case became public, and we asked him about that. He was the chief executive and he said he was not aware of that issue at all. We then sought to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Is clinical risk not a HSE function?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Clearly, people in the HSE were familiar with the cervical cancer issue because it was going before the High Court. Yet, there did not seem to be any communication within the HSE for that to be known at senior level.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The problems start in the HSE. We want the HSE to take more ownership. The view seems to have been that since the agency handles all the cases and gets all the legal documents and discovery, the minute a case comes in it is over to the agency. This lack of communication has contributed to the lack of adequate learning. The HSE only learns when the case is over. If the chief executive...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Lynch stated that he met several people. That was not in the medical context. What was the context?

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